The Tyranny of the Sword

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
There is a lot of talk now about the balance of fighters vs wizards and whatnot. And now is a good time to bring up a problem that I don't think I have ever seen someone talk about. Specifically, its about melee characters, and the way the metagame, or even metafiction, reacts to them. I say “sword” instead of melee, mostly because swords seem to be the favored melee weapon for this kind of thing.

You see, there is a problem with melee combat that is best known from the real world adage: “Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.” What it basically boils down to, is that the sword isn't the ideal weapon to use in most situations, but it is at it's most glaring when you look at other options with a range and/or power (or perhaps even ease of use) advantage over the sword. This problem was addressed in real life, by the eventual phasing out of the sword from modern conflict.

In the fantasy genre, however, this problem was in direct conflict with the sword's iconography. The sword is a “cool” weapon, and it symbolizes power, honor, nobility, all that kind of jazz. So when you want a character to reflect those traits, you want them to use a sword.

So here lies the main problem: You want to use a sword, but using a sword isn't as great as it sounds. Some fantasy just rolls with it, This happens in more “historic” settings, deconstructions, or even in games where a player has access to more than one character.

Now for what I am really talking about (apologies to the tl:dr crowd)

Most players want their swordsman to be just as cool as everyone else (at least). This has lead to the balancing trends that you see in games, and especially in modern games, as most things build somewhat off of those things that have come before.

When it comes to balance, the metagame has to be adapted in order to make a swordsman an attractive option. There are, basically, two different ways to accomplish this. Sometimes, the two are even used in tandem with varying degrees.

Type 1, the first way: Making other options unattractive.

The best example of this kind of option in fiction, that I know if, is the Dune universe. Therein, people of importance have a personal shield which prevents weapons, other than “slow moving” ones such as swords and knives, from harming them. This is a more extreme example, as other options are rendered completely inviable: Bullets and other projectiles simply do not penetrate the protection field, and energy weapons, explode like an atomic bomb when used against the shield. Needless to say, people end up using melee combat.

Type 2, the second way: Making swords (and their users) more attractive.

A good example of this, again imo, comes from the Star Wars universe. The swords in this universe, lightsabers, are able to cut through nearly any substance, and even reflect energy attacks, which happen to be the standard type of ranged ammunition in this setting. The primary Sword users of this setting are Jedi (or Sith, but lets not delve too far). Jedi have superhuman powers including expanded awareness, incredible agility, and the ability to manipulate objects over distances. These things, when combined, nearly negate all of a traditional swordsman's weaknesses. They can close the gaps, negate ranged attacks and ambushes, or even use their sword as a ranged weapon if need be.

Each gaming system is shaped by how much of each type they employ. In wargames, individual unit balance is less stressed. This lends itself to picking minor amounts of each, such as “melee weapons deal more damage than ranged weapons, because they don't have range” (type 2) and possibly “a penalty for ranged units when attacking in melee range”( type 1). Of course, because the players are using armies with rigid rules of what they can and cannot do, instead of a single RPG character, the choice to have any individual unit as melee has a much smaller opportunity cost.

The problem

When you don't use enough of Type 1 or Type 2, swordsmen fall behind the curve. But everyone has an upper threshold of exactly how much of Type 1 and/or Type 2 they will enjoy. This amount is largely Dependant on the game they are playing. A game where everyone is using normal humans would probably favor Type 1 (things like gun malfunctions), and tolerate next to no Type 2. Contrast that with people playing a game of superheroes, who would possibly love Type 2 but loathe any amount of Type 1.

When looking at this problem with a D&D lens, you have to consider how much of each you want to use. The sneaky guy wants to be just as cool as the swordsman, so type one is perhaps a bit less desirable. On the other hand, some people prefer their mundane swordsmen remain mundane, so having gobs of type 2 will throw them off. Keep in mind the other players are trying to be wizards and clerics and other such things, so keeping people at about the same level of coolness is going to be a challenge.

The question

How much of Type 1 and how much of Type 2 should D&D Next have?
 

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How much of Type 1 and how much of Type 2 should D&D Next have?
That's a good question.

I'd say a lot of Type 2, and some Type 1. If I only had 10 "points" to spend on each emphasizing them, with more points meaning higher emphasis, I'd say eight points in Type 2 and two points in Type 1.

I think that mundane people can have a lot of perks. My RPG utilizes stances, combat style maneuvers, combat maneuvers (such as tripping), extra damage (on top of a better base damage than magic, too), etc. You can use these and stay completely mundane.

In 4e, they tried to achieve this goal with the power system, which admirably gave them a lot of Type 2 with minimal Type 1 (my preference). While the system doesn't appeal to me, the distribution looked good.

Anyways, that's my take on it. I think you can definitely give completely mundane characters a lot more Type 2 while keeping them mundane, and that's my preferred method. As always, play what you like :)
 

My main issue is finding the main reason for keeping warriors in an adventuring party. I am biased to keeping warriors more than a few tiers above people who have not been training years at combat even when under a pile of spells and magic items.

Basically a fighter is still WAY better warrior than a druid wildshaped into a wolf, a wizard polymorphed into a ogre, a cleric enhanced by a pair of divine spells, or a rogue wielding a magic sword.

So that's a good amount of Type 1 with some Type 2?
 

Say I'm play testing a tough encounter. I test it first with a group of pure melee characters. They lose. Then I test it with a group of pure ranged characters. They lose. Then I test it with a group that's half melee and half range. They defeat the encounter. I'll be happy with those results. Sure, it's possible some encounters involving lots of tricky terrain may favor ranged characters, and some encounters involving a bunch of burrowing melee monsters may favor melee characters, but it's up to the DM at that point to make sure all types get their chance to shine.

It's otherwise not feasible to compare range to melee on paper one to one. If the tactical advantages of the two styles are squashed by games mechanics, say allowing a pure range group to more frequently succeed, and pure melee group to more frequently fail, then we have a problem. It's not a huge problem, but it is a problem, because I feel the system should encourage diversity.

For the balancing process, I would favor Type 2 over Type 1 for both game mechanical and romantic reasons.
 

I prefer a lot more of Type 1 than Type 2... when I play RPGs/CRPGs, I invariably choose melee-oriented characters. I don't like my melee characters too 'wu xia', unless we're talking about a character whose fighting style/background reflects this (like the 4E swordmage or battlemind).
 

Well to me tome of battle is the best 3e book so I'm type 2 to the end, I really like "wuxia" like fighters and all.

Like a "tough" shoud be tough, high DR, no forced moved, etc

A "power"fighter should be powerfull, high damage, break walls with a strike and etc

And a "quick"fighter should be quick, multiples attacks, very fast, jumps high...

Fighters should be more like Berserk ones.
 
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I think people who want their swordsfolk to remain mundane while their wizards are creating brand new planes need to re-adjust their expectations.

Because if you expect that, you will ALWAYS have wizards who are stronger than warriors. Wizards get to do mind-bending things with magic, and warriors never get to do anything other than mundane stuff.

Now, you can "E6 it." (or 4e it) You can reduce the power overall, and have wizards capable of some neat little tricks while your warriors are capable of beating down really tough opponents. Or you can make spells into exceptional rewards, so that wizards aren't guaranteed these magical abilities. And that's well and good and fine, but not a universal solution.

Or, you can give warriors powers that rival those of the spellcasters.

You can do this via wuxia-style or supernatural inherent abilities, but you really don't have to. You can also do it via equipment -- fighters get magic swords that let them fly and shoot fire, wizards get magic spells that let them do that. Your fighter is a skilled warrior, but he can't shoot energy blasts himself -- but he DOES have a magic shield that can shoot energy blasts. He has that because he is a very skilled warrior, and took it from the hoarde of a dragon.

I think the better D&D solution is via Type II. But the amount of Type II should be variable depending on the DM -- thus, couching it in the treasure system is not a bad plan.
 

There is a problem in your analogy. In the star wars universe - jedi aren't the fighters. The stormtroopers are.

Troopers, or to a lesser extent anyone with a blaster, are the one tricky pony of the star wars universe. They have a gun, they can fire it and then when that doesn't work they can fire it again.
I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I AM saying that making all fighters jedi isn't the solution.

Jedi are pretty much wizards of the star wars universe. If they resort to using a lightsaber against every enemy then they have done something wrong.

Now. As far as a solution, when you realize all the above, take a look at what SW has done to mitigate force users. Yes force users are still uber but they don't rule everything. They have severe restrictions of use due to their order, politics and local convention.

Large groups can still take out a jedi, so can surprise attacks. This is exactly how I would like wizards to be handled. The problem isn't the fighter it is the wizard. (Yes fighters need a bit of a boost too but wizards need a reduction.)

From a PF standpoint: Make spells no longer occur all day, nor ability to use them all day, just because. Make them rely on other skills, on companions, on gear, in order to keep them alive. Then when it matters, allow them to fight a bounty hunter and pull out all the stops. Don't have the expectations of the WORLD be "there is magic therefore no common solution is needed." Have it be "there, a common solution, but if you have magic you can do it X(better/faster/stronger/gooder:P)."

Just my 2 cents.
 

Going by what I've seen on ENWorld, more people seem to want mundane fighters than want powerful wizards. If that's true, Type 1 is the better approach. However ENWorld posts have a pro-DM bias and DMs often prefer weaker PCs, for a number of reasons.
 

There are two different concerns when applying this to D&D:

  1. Sword versus Bow.
  2. Sword versus Spell.
I think Sword versus Bow has been handled reasonably well recently. It's been handled mostly through Type 1. Characters are generally more difficult to hit with a bow than they might realistically be, and an arrow just doesn't do the kind of damage that it realistically would. We are able to accept this. (Note how this is different than a gun. We have a much harder time accepting that a gun just does a few hit points due to greater familiarity with the weapon.)

Sword versus Spell is different and more difficult. Type 1 simply doesn't work with the tradition of D&D magic. Mundane skill can remain cool and viable until the Wizard moves beyond third level spells. This is basically the foundation of E6 as far as I can tell. After that, melee combat needs non-mundane enhancement of some sort. I don't like the Fourth Edition method of just giving them powers. I think they should have to choose their power source. It could be equipment, magical study, honing their ki energy, psionics, divine enhancement, or whatever. The important part is that it is defined and part of the setting and narrative.

It makes sense. A student of martial combat is going to learn anything that can make them a better fighter.
 

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