D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable

[Pedantic]

...a warlock chassis, spells being SUMMONS only, invocations that modify summons, pacts could be with certain types of creatues?

we'd need a few better, more variety summons spells.

I'd probably lean more toward a unique mechanic, more like "pick a list of monsters, here's the point cost for each one from your daily pool of points" or even "design your own unique team using this list of monster traits with costs" over trying to fit this all in the spell list.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I also like the Necromancer class by Mage Hand Press. I feel it does a better job at bringing the Necromancer minion fantasy. I think 5e 2024 should focus more on a dark magic wizard than an Overlord. It is simpler for newer players, and I think there are quite a few veterans that wouldn't mind a subclass that leans into all the Necromancy spell capabilities.

My concern is simulation, so I want a necromancer that does the things necromancers are traditionally capable of, modeled as per setting logic. I know 5.5 has different priorities, but I really don't care what WotC does.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I personally prefer playing Necromancers who are focused on casting Necromancy spells to damage/debuff enemies instead of creating Undead.

The issue is having just one Necromancer subclass. There should be two of them, one for damage/debuffing and the other for Undead.

Hence the Mage Hand Necromancer class.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Those 2 aren't mutually exclusive.
Perhaps not the same spell/feature. But easy enough to have both.

I haven't heard anyone say they want to track individual things.

Yes.
Doesn't have to be the only thing they do.

No. That's what a DM is for.

No. Things have moved away from alignment.
though there could certainly be settings specific restrictions.

No. Again the DM is in charge of narrative implications.

As for needing a corpses, that's a harder one. Maybe split the difference. You can summon anywhere, but summoning from a corpse gives you a bonus (i.e. last longerl.

Most of those are balance considerations.

Needs to be able to create a "army", but not as individual minions.
Which is not mutually exclusive to creating one larger undead.

Easy enough to have multiple different spells.
I.e. Conjure Undead (Swarm) Summon Undead (individual), Undead Servant (utility), and Circle of Death (non-summon).

And let the player cast the one they want.

I look forward to seeing the next person's list that probably disagrees and runs counter to most of your votes.

 

[ECMO3]

I think the key to good class design is being fun to play, and that is how I evaluate class mechanics, not just for me but for other players.

Personally I have never played a Necromancer, but I have DMed for high level necromancers and had other players playing them at the table and they enjoyed them, so it is a good subclass design IMO.

The Necromancer summons never caused a problem and TBH the most powerful Wizard's Army I have seen in play is the one my Bladesinger built out of demons summoned with Summon Greater Demon and then bound them with planar binding. My Glabrezu, Toruk and multiple Balgura and Vrocks would wipe out the best Necromancers buffed Skeletons and Zombie armies I have ever seen.

The maximum number of undead a 20th level Necromancer could summon into his army is around 70 undead (which would require every one of his 3+ level spell slots every day). Even if he managed that I still don't think the Army would match up to what can be done with SGD, Magic Circle, Arcane Lock and Planar Binding and the Wizard that does that has spell slots left over after he builds his Army.

Also it is not a discussion with a player that decides how many corpses there are. The DM alone decides that. The only way it is a discussion is if it comes up in session 0.

Finally any Wizard, Cleric or high level Bard can cast Animate Dead, so building an Army of them is hardly unique to Necromancers. Necromancers Skeletons and Zombies are more powerful, and there are a few more of them (since he gets an extra one on every casting), but any Wizard or Cleric can do this.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I’d look to the Swarmkeeper Ranger.

Then upgrade spells like Unseen Servant for the class, letting them summon several at once. Give them a skeleton familiar as well. In combat they can spend a spell slot to empower their Horde, making movement within its space difficult terrain for your enemies, giving it resistance to all damage (rather than high HP), and on your turn all enemies in its area or with 5ft of its area must save vs minor ish damage scaled by spell level, and you can use a bonus action to make them hit harder or do soemthing more complex. Half damage on a successful save.

That’s for a necromancer class. Not sure it would work for a subclass.

 

[Eubani]

WotC needs to have an open and frank conversation with the players that classes cannot for the sake of playability have a field of creatures to control. The Necromancer will have to instead deal with the energies of life and death and/or a singular undead pet. This means more Necromancy spells need to be made.

 

[Micah Sweet]

WotC needs to have an open and frank conversation with the players that classes cannot for the sake of playability have a field of creatures to control. The Necromancer will have to instead deal with the energies of life and death and/or a singular undead pet. This means more Necromancy spells need to be made.

D&D managed to get Necromancy working pretty well outside WotC, and/or in previous editions. Unless we have different definitions of "playable" of course. YMMV.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

D&D managed to get Necromancy working pretty well outside WotC, and/or in previous editions. Unless we have different definitions of "playable" of course. YMMV.

I don't recall any version of D&D that had PC necromancers who could summon armies of undead. There were no PC necromancers in 1st edition, and by 3rd edition all they got was an extra necromancy spell per day. There was the Pale Master PrC in 3rd edition, that had a couple of undead pets, but clerics were always the best class if you wanted to throw undead hordes at your foes.

 

[Horwath]

I would keep necromancer as single undead summon with option to summon more at the cost of spell slots.

I.E:
3rd level
undead master.
you gain Summon Undead spell.
you treat spell slot as one level higher for casting Summon Undead spell.
When you cast Summon undead it has no duration. It can end normally with breaking concentration and/or suffering damage to summoned creature.

6th level:
enduring summons.
Undead you summon or create gain +1 HP per wizard level and gain evasion.

effortless summons:
you can cast Summon undead as Bonus action and without Concentration, but then it lasts only 1 minute.