The Videogame comparison

[FireLance]

"encounter" and "daily" powers are very videogameish, matching cooldowns you often see in MMOs like WoW or 10min/2hr powers from FFXI etc.

I assume you mean encounter and daily martial exploits, because spells refreshing on a daily basis has been a feature of D&D since pretty much the beginning, and I've never heard the Vancian spellcasting system described as "videogameish" before. 4e does have a lot more powers that refresh on an encounter basis than previous editions, but even though you need to rest for a shorter period of time, the fact remains that you still need to rest! In pretty much the same way that you don't regain spells in previous edition if you don't rest and prepare (or memorize) them, you don't regain daily powers unless you take an extended rest, and you don't regain encounter powers unless you take a short rest. I suppose that there may be videogames where you need to rest to regain abilities (or PP, or Mana, or whatever), but resting to regain abilities is hardly a defining characteristic of videogames.

"Treasure Bundles", "get a wish list of magic items to give to the players" and the clear direction from the game that players are expected to win and get what they want to drop from the monsters and to reach maximum level is pretty standard videogameism as well.

I personally have never encountered a videogame which asks you what magic items you want your character to have (unless it's in the context of which gift or reward you want). On the other hand, I have encountered human DMs that do. I would agree that 4e encourages the DM to take in more inputs from the players, but that's hardly common in videogames.

 

[Danzauker]

And again, a big issue for me remains the fact that it moves someone without any regard to their stats.

When you roll a natural 20 you hit someone without any regard to their stats, too.

A daily power usually is the biggest schtick a character has. It usually always hits (or at least has a minor effect in case of a miss).

If you wish, you can assume every character has a "free natural 20", which he can use with his daily powers.

Narratively, it takes randomness and puts it in the hands of a player, so that he can spare his big deals for when he really needs them to perform them, just like in movies and novels.

In Karate Kid, the protagonist used the crane stance just once, when he really needed it, and it worked. In Kill Bill the "heart breaking move" was used just once, the Bride didn't go around using it to kill everyone from the beginning of the movie. Ans so on.

Let's assume that you swing your sword 100 times in a tipical D&D day for semplicity's sake. You could devise a system where daily powers work with a 00 in a d100 roll. Statistically, they would be nearly equivalent. But would this be more fun? Would you ever try a power that fails 99% of the times?

 

[phloog]

Checked AV, (snip)

In order to have a decent chance of killing a 1st-level PC with average (we'll say 23) hp, you'd need a 4d10 damage crash, which of course is four squares of movement or about 2 mph. So yeah, that's pretty screwy--(SNIP2)

Here's a not at all serious but rather facetious answer:

Isn't it up to the player of 4E to come up with a valid narrative reason why the 2 mph cart manages to completely kill his character?

 

[Kordeth]

Here's a not at all serious but rather facetious answer:

Isn't it up to the player of 4E to come up with a valid narrative reason why the 2 mph cart manages to completely kill his character?

Like I said, I don't have a problem with it. Speed in D&D has never translated well from "squares/feet per round" to real-world speed. Remember when Feather Fall used to send you hurtling to the ground at something like 5 mph? Heck, a riding horse's top speed in 4E is about 13 and a half miles per hour (double-moving using the run action gives the horse a speed of 24 squares per round, which is about 13.6 mph).

So yes, it's up to the player to explain it--the easiest approach to which is to simply ignore the actual speed and just assume that vehicles are moving at an excitingly dramatic pace.

 

[phloog]

Well, I actually expected that to just get ignored.

I guess if we're going that way, I would handle it differently anyway...simply deciding that a PC probably should not lose his life to a cart.

If we're talking about a cart running wild, we're likely talking about some kind of runaway applecart scenario, and likely not something hurled by the demon Funyunamax.

I know this makes me different than a lot of DMs, but I'm violently anti-stupid-death. The idea of a PC being killed by a cart, or a cold, or something equally mundane is against my style.

It's definitely an obstacle or inconvenience, but I can't see having a runaway cart send a player back to the PH to start again. Which is why I figured my example was a bit silly...guess not.

 

[Kordeth]

Well, I actually expected that to just get ignored.

I guess if we're going that way, I would handle it differently anyway...simply deciding that a PC probably should not lose his life to a cart.

If we're talking about a cart running wild, we're likely talking about some kind of runaway applecart scenario, and likely not something hurled by the demon Funyunamax.

I know this makes me different than a lot of DMs, but I'm violently anti-stupid-death. The idea of a PC being killed by a cart, or a cold, or something equally mundane is against my style.

It's definitely an obstacle or inconvenience, but I can't see having a runaway cart send a player back to the PH to start again. Which is why I figured my example was a bit silly...guess not.

Well, the example applies equally well to a PC running down a 1st-level humanoid monster in a chariot--and I agree, PCs only die of the stupids if the PCs themselves are the root cause of the stupids.

I was just pointing out that speeds in general get wonky when you try to extrapolate out "squares per move" to "miles per hour." Humans are pretty close to right--with a top run speed of 16 squares per round, that averages out to 9 mph, which is hardly record-breaking but pretty good. Speeds just don't scale up well from that. For a horse to gallop at an average of 35 mph, it would need a base speed of around 28 or so. Personally, I'm just fine with the compression of speeds, as it saves me from needing the bloody Round Table to fit my battlemaps on.

 

[phloog]

Distance/speed IS wonky - - I think that's why when 4E came out and became even more grid focused, I actually "over-rebelled", and I find myself not even so much wanting to stay with 3.5, but wanting to either go backwards in D&D revs, or off to something like T20.

It's harder in SOME ways on the DM and players (mostly in terms of positional arguments - - "That guy can't attack the wizard because I said I was in the way last round!"), but it just seems like each step closer to a board/skirmish rules system we get, we get more and more freakish situations.

I find that if I'm going to have to ignore large sections of the rules, it might be good to try another set of rules - - note again this is not just a 4e complaint, but 3.5.

 

[MarauderX]

As you can see in my signature, I think D&D Online is D&D 3.75. 4E is really a means for characters to operate as a battle flows, but as mentioned the real feel isn't that of a video game. It comes from the characters being able to do anything, and the parts that I really like are the cinematic ones - the ones that could hardly be mimicked in a MMO video game.

The distinction is hard to discern to many who play MMOs and are used to various rules of operation within the game. However, 4E is based more heavily in minis and grids. It also allows for a lot more control and maneuvering through combat than other editions since it is based more in representative grids.

To have players overcome this, I use cinematic things for enemies and have intricate layouts aside from a typical 2D dungeon layout. Doing so encourages others to attempt similar things, which makes the game more enjoyable than an MMO.

 

[Nail]

PCs only die of the stupids if the PCs themselves are the root cause of the stupids.

Nice quote.

 

[Nail]

To have players overcome this, I use cinematic things for enemies and have intricate layouts aside from a typical 2D dungeon layout. Doing so encourages others to attempt similar things, which makes the game more enjoyable than an MMO.

Post a picture?