The Weird Penalty of Core Classes

[PieAndDragon]

From another group, that dumped multi-classing penalties altogether, and has never looked back.

Good luck on finding the right build!

 

[irdeggman]

Don't get too fixated on the idea of "Legolas clone" -- that's just a convenient shorthand term for "elven archer who can do all sorts of wild acrobatic moves." I was using Legolas as a springboard for my own character.

I'm really diggin' the Scout/Ranger/ThfAcr build, now that it's done; I'll post him in the Rogue's Gallery later today. I still think multiclassing penalties are wonky, but fortunately this version avoids them. Anybody who suggested Scout/Ranger, I'm sorry I doubted you.

-The Gneech

Hey that was me. I checked and I was to first to mention scout instead of rogue. I even said the scout and ranger skills mesh very well too.

But I still don't like the scout class due to the movement orientation of all its apecial abilities - thus limiting the character to a single attack per round.

 

[lukelightning]

Using the D&D ranger doesn't fit. Legolas didn't have an animal companion nor did he cast spells IIRC.

Sure he did. His animal companion was Gimli.

 

[The_Gneech]

Sure he did. His animal companion was Gimli.

*snerk*

For anybody interested in the actual stats, Celedras v4.0 is now up in the Rogues Gallery. Enjoy!

The big problem, I think, is that I was fixating on "ThfAcr 3" as the magic number. The main quality of the Thief-Acrobat PrC that I wanted was the Fast Acrobatics, which he gets at 1st, but because I was so keen to get "through" Thief-Acrobat so I could start on Order of the Bow Initiate, I felt like I had to take Rogue to get Evasion at 2nd.

Defensive Archery changed all that. It's not quite immunity to AoO's when using your bow -- it's +4 to your AC against them -- but combined with the Scout's AC bonus that gives him an AC of 26 against AoO's. Once he gets back those other two levels of ThfAcr and Agile Fighting, that'll be an AC of 27, or 30 when fighting defensively. 0.o That should do the job! That pretty much enables me to toss Order of the Bow Initiate out the window, as the extra damage from Skirmish replaces the lost Precise Shot damage nicely.

At the end of the day, this version ended up with more (like, a lot more) skill points as well, so I cranked up his Hide to obscene levels to get that sniper ability I wanted, can run around the battlefield like nobody's beeswax, still makes a respectable backup Rogue (he lost two points of Disable Device but can easily make that up in the next two levels with Thief-Acrobat), and even gained a hit point! 0.o The only downsides are that he lost a point of BAB (from +11 to +10) and a point of Will save (which does hurt a bit, it was only 4 as it was).

From here, he'll probably finish off Thief-Acrobat and then spend the rest of his career bouncing back and forth between Scout and Ranger, taking Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot, and possibly Able Sniper or Penetrating Shot (from PHB 2).

-The Gneech

 

[Whimsical]

Scouts taking Manyshot should afterward take Greater Manyshot, an obscure general feat found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook that makes it all come together.

 

[jmucchiello]

Completely off-topic, but I miss the old Skills and Powers from AD&D2 "Redux". I would love to see the "build-from-scratch" character concepts re-done for 3. I remember seeing a supplemet called "Buy the Numbers" on EnWorld somwhere...

Buy the Numbers is a PDF sold by ST Cooley. It completely throws out the notion of class and allows you to buy "class" features (BAB, Will Save, Hit DIce, animal companions, etc) piecemeal using experience points. This is a radical departure for someone who isn't willing to just dump the experience point penalty. OTOH, if you like Fantasy HERO, it may be just the thing for you.

My own take on this would be to turn the OotIB and ThAcr into a combine "core" class. But then, I'm the guy who wrote Character Customization, a PDF which has a system for mixing and matching class features to create balanced new core classes. It is unfortunately still stuck at 3.0 edition with the delayed update perpetually forthcoming.

 

[Felon]

Scouts taking Manyshot should afterward take Greater Manyshot, an obscure general feat found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook that makes it all come together.

It's quite odd that this feat has never been reproduced anywhere else. It's one of the few SRD general feats that isn't published in a mainstream product.

 

[Voadam]

The experience penalty rule exists to discourage exactly the min-maxing class dipping you're trying. This rule is working as designed, no problem here. Suck it up.

The rule is to force multiclasses of base classes to be within roughly the same levels or to be according to favored classes.

So this forces players who want concepts that don't work with those restrictions for core classes to turn to feats, prcs, races, and non core classes in non-core books. 3/7 in core classes not appealing? Turn to 5/5 using a non-core class or prc.

Therefore scout class and thief acrobat prc. Voila rule works as designed. No problem here. Since you bought the supplement books with those other classes.

What value for the game there is to encouraging a ranger scout of similar levels versus a ranger rogue of dissimilar levels to make the same character concept is not apparent to me, though.

 

[eris404]

For anybody interested in the actual stats, Celedras v4.0 is now up in the Rogues Gallery. Enjoy!

Nicely done! And for what it's worth, I really like the scout class. I'm playing one now in a "barbarian" campaign and it's a fun class.

 

[The_Gneech]

Nicely done! And for what it's worth, I really like the scout class. I'm playing one now in a "barbarian" campaign and it's a fun class.

Well thanks!

The question now is, do I go the Manyshot/Improved Rapid Shot route, or do I go for Mounted Combat and start taking levels in Wild Plains Outrider to have a Mongolesque elf archer? Decisions, decisions! That'll be for the campaign to determine, I guess.

-The Gneech