The Worship Points System

[-Eä-]

CRs above 20

Are you still incorporating the formula I created for CRs above 20? It really is quite nifty if you have a calculator at hand (as I have experienced numerous times since I created the formula).

As for XP: I will make a succinct formula for that one too, tomorrow.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: CRs above 20

Hi -Eä- mate!

Are you still incorporating the formula I created for CRs above 20?

No.

While yours was the more accurate method, it was unnecessarily complicated and required a calculator.

It really is quite nifty if you have a calculator at hand (as I have experienced numerous times since I created the formula).

As for XP: I will make a succinct formula for that one too, tomorrow.

I prefer my own method (far simpler) - any tiny loss of accuracy in such a subjective process was always going to be irrelevant anyway. The main point was avoiding the glaring incongruity of challenge ratings the further you ascend above 20 using the Core Rules.

But by all means feel free to repost your formula (and explanation) and the one for XP when devised.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Why SUPERnatural Armour must be addressed

Hi all!

Under AC listings I will have Natural and Supernatural bonuses seperated.

Therefore:

- anyone who wants to use the Core Rules can do so by just looking at the AC figure.
- anyone who wants to acknowledge the difference between natural and supernatural (but still adhere to core rules regarding armour) can do so by simply negating supernatural armour in an Anti-Magic Field.
- anyone who wants to use the optional rules for armour (reducing damage instead of increasing AC) can do so by removing natural armour from AC and making it a Resilience Bonus.

So I am pretty much catering for every eventuality.

Okay, this current idea seems to have garnered a mixed reception.

The above quote shows how, but not why Natural/Supernatural Armour must be addressed.

While I certainly wouldn't force such a rule on people I do want everyone to understand the reasoning behind why I advocate it.

So lets use four examples, which, for the purpose of the experiment we will assume are all Demigods: Demogorgon, Elminster, Orcus and Tiamat. Lets assume they all have 49HD (or levels).

Demogorgon is a huge scaly demon
Elminster is a medium sized human
Orcus is a large leathery skinned demon
Tiamat is a colossal plated dragon

Okay, lets say your using the Core Rules for Natural Armour.

Q: How do you determine the natural armour of each!?

Frankly I don't see how you can!?

Okay, so how would I do it.

(Literal) Natural Armour

Firstly lets take a look at (literal) natural armour (I showed in a recent previous post how to determine this).

Elminster (Medium/Normal Skin) = +0
Orcus (Large/Leathery Skin) = +5
Demogorgon (Huge/Scaly Skin) = +15
Tiamat (Colossal/Plated) = +46*

*Tiamat is obviously armour plated. You might consider Tiamat Colossal/Scaly Skin = +25, but it won't affect this example (Dragons seemingly have natural armour approx. equal to their HD -1, so we can assume they are armour plated).

Clearly size and skin type are the main factors affecting (literal) natural armour.

Supernatural Armour

However we know that Outsiders (and therefore deities) can gain/manifest a supernatural bonus to their natural armour. In the Worship Points System this is done by expending WPs.

More WPs expended the greater the Supernatural Armour bonus.

If all the above beings are demigods then they could all expend roughly the same amount - gaining potentially the same Supernatural Armour Bonus.

An easy marker for this is to have SnA equal to HD/Levels (although the actual process doesn't work like that).

So (for the sake of this example) the above Demigods could manifest a SnA bonus of +49.

Which means added to their 'natural' armour:

Elminster = +49
Orcus = +54
Demogorgon = +64
Tiamat = +95

So clearly Tiamat has potentially the highest natural armour (NA +SnA combined) even though all four are of equal power.

Why (literal) Natural Armour/Armour MUST reduce Dexterity

Logic dictates that the larger/heavier/more dense something becomes the slower its reflexes (Dexterity) become. Likewise anyone wearing armour will also become slower in this fashion.

So we must assume that (literal) natural armour (and armour) counters Dexterity (not imposes a limit to them! As per the idiotic core rule idea).

So because Tiamat has the highest (literal) natural armour (part of which is due to size alone) she must have the most severe Dex penalty.

The easiest method of determining this is that +1 point of (literal) natural armour (and armour) reduces Dex -1.

eg. Full Platemail (NA +8) reduces Dex -8.

However, no being will naturally evolve armour that would impose a negative Dex penalty to it. So therefore we can assume for (literal) natural armour that Dexterity can't go below 10.

Wearers of Manufactured Armour are not so accustomed to it and as such face penalties taking Dexterity below 10.

eg. Dex 14 human will be treated as having Dex 6 in Full Platemail.

I would, however, allow both magical armour and a Feat to halt Dex being reduced below 10.

So to return to our examples:

Elminster = -0 Dex
Orcus (Large/Leathery Skin) = -5 Dex
Demogorgon (Huge/Scaly Skin) = -15 Dex
Tiamat (Colossal/Plated) = -46 Dex

So for Tiamat to function as if she had Dex 12 she would have to increase her Dexterity to 58.

Why Supernatural Armour IS a DEFLECTION bonus

The most obvious reason is that we already have Supernatural Armour in the form of Damage Reduction. Damage Reduction is (of course) already Supernatural and ceases to function with Anti-Magic.

We have already proved that the Succubus cannot have (literal) Natural Armour +9.

Equally the (supposed) natural armour of a Succubus cannot be an actual 'armour' bonus otherwise it would be incorporated into its Damage Reduction 20/+2. Therefore it must be a deflection bonus!

The whole thing in a nutshell...hopefully

1. Armour ABSORBS damage.
2. The heavier the armour you sport the SLOWER you get.
3. Outsider skin is NOT 'naturally' tougher than it looks.
4. Any Outsider bonus to AC beyond its (literal) natural armour is Supernatural Deflection since Damage Reduction is (literal) Supernatural ARMOUR. Either way it ceases to function within Anti-Magic.

Any questions/comments!?

I am interested to hear if anyone is still unsure why I am proposing this optional rule!?

 

[Crothian]

First let me say WOw and that is very interesting. It seems to make sense to me. Let me ask my one simple comment on the reducing dexterity by way of Supernatural Armor.

I like the idea, but I'm not sure if all aspects of dexterity need to be reduced. The one I would argue to remain the same is the dex bonus for ranged attacks, particuliarly ranged spell attacks. All four of your examples will (or at least in my opinion should) have termendous magical abilities. Granted, there are few, comparitively, spells that require a ranged attack roll, but I hate limiting there use as I fear your rules will do. I really hope that made some sense.

Overall, though, I've been really impressed with the WPS. Espescially since you explain why and what you are doing. I don't want it to seem like I expect writers to justify their decsions to us, the consumer. But it makes for greater insight for the consumers if we can understand why things work the way they do.

 

[Impeesa]

And now for something completely different!

Hey Krusty - Think we can get a writeup on Mike Oldfield, God of Guitars?

--Impeesa--

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Crothian mate!

First let me say WOW and that is very interesting.

Thanks.

A lot of what I have commented on probably won't have been initially obvious.

Most people will just accept natural armour as is. Which is fine, except when you either have to determine natural armour or modify existing natural armour, as I do.

If I don't clearly divide (literal) natural armour from supernatural armour; then the (fundamental) ability (for deities) to modify this facet of themselves simply won't:

a) Make sense
b) Balance properly

As I have pointed out numerous times the application is still optional.

It seems to make sense to me.

Sometimes explaining the reasoning behind a rule can be more difficult than the rule itself.

Let me ask my one simple comment on the reducing dexterity by way of Supernatural Armor.

Supernatural Armour does not reduce Dexterity

Only (literal) Natural Armour* and (actual) Armour** reduce dexterity.

*thick skin (due to size), leathery skin, scaly skin, carapace/chitinous plating etc.
**leather armour, chainmail, platemail etc.

This is one reason why you must determine what is (literal) Natural Armour and what is Supernatural.

Supernatural Armour (Deflection) is quasi-magical and does not function within Anti-Magic. Bracers of Defense and Mage Armor also operate in this fashion.

Damage Reduction (Armour) is also quasi-magical and does not function within Anti-Magic. Just like Stoneskin.

I like the idea, but I'm not sure if all aspects of dexterity need to be reduced. The one I would argue to remain the same is the dex bonus for ranged attacks, particuliarly ranged spell attacks. All four of your examples will (or at least in my opinion should) have termendous magical abilities. Granted, there are few, comparitively, spells that require a ranged attack roll, but I hate limiting there use as I fear your rules will do. I really hope that made some sense.

I agree with you. I don't imagine armour would affect someones targeting capabilities.

Definately Initiative (reflexes) and Armour Class (avoidance) are affected though!

Overall, though, I've been really impressed with the WPS.

Thanks again!

Espescially since you explain why and what you are doing. I don't want it to seem like I expect writers to justify their decsions to us, the consumer. But it makes for greater insight for the consumers if we can understand why things work the way they do.

I am of the opinion that if you can't justify a new rule then you have no right making it!

Which is why (I would like to think) I have been fully open with people here over the past dozen threads or so!?

I'll openly discuss (or debate if necessary) my reasoning for any point in the WPS.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: And now for something completely different!

Hi Impeesa mate!

Sorry it took me so long to reply, ever since I made my previous post I haven't been able to access the boards...

Hey Krusty - Think we can get a writeup on Mike Oldfield, God of Guitars?

Presumably his capabilities are mostly Bard based, lets say 30th-level.

I think maybe if you took the square root of all his albums sold you would get a fair idea of the number of worshippers he has!?

Unfortunately my knowledge on Mr. Oldfield is limited in this regard. If we assume approx. 25 million albums. Then he probably has approx. 5000 Worshippers. If we assume 10 WP/head (in generic cases) he has 50,000WP which would make him a Hero-deity - provided he hadn't expended any WP!?

Hope that helps!?

 

[-Eä-]

Greetings!


I don't know if this has interest to any of you, but here is the formula I came to. To me it's simpler to use, I simply plot in the numbers, and the CR comes forth.

The scale is clearly logerithmic, so this is my reasoning:

1.1) c*ln(a)-b=z
2.1) c*ln(a/2)-b=z-10

1.2) c=(b+z)/ln(a)
2.2) c=(-10+b+z)/ln(a)

3.1) (b+z)/ln(a)=(-10+b+z)/ln(a)
3.2) b=-z+ln(a)/ln(2)

We then substitute 1.2 and in the equation c*ln(x)-b=CR:

((b+z)/ln(a))*ln(x)-b=CR

Then 3.2 into this:

(((-z+ln(a)/ln(2))+z)/ln(a))*ln(x)-(-z+ln(a)/ln(2))=CR
(z*ln(2)-10ln(a)+10ln(x))/ln(2)=CR

The symbols are:
z and a: z is the CR a creature with level a should have
x: this is the actual level.

Then we substitute for z and a: z=100, a=5120
Then we get:

(100*ln(2)-10ln(5120)+10ln(x))/ln(2)=CR
That is:
10ln(x/5)/ln(2)=CR


This gives a continous scale that scales infinitelly (and as it isn't easy for people not used to calculus to find this formula, therefore I still recommend that you include it, just as a note under the table or something. Also, it takes far less time using a formula, especially for "higher levels," where "higher levels" is for instance 24373. Then you only need to plot this number, and the CR comes out (if CRs are relevant at those levels))


Due to a dinner party I had to attend today, I have not created the other formula (which is needed for fractioned CRs, but I will do it as soon as I have the time)

 

[Impeesa]

Re: Re: And now for something completely different!

Presumably his capabilities are mostly Bard based, lets say 30th-level.

I think maybe if you took the square root of all his albums sold you would get a fair idea of the number of worshippers he has!?

That's certainly an interesting idea.

Unfortunately my knowledge on Mr. Oldfield is limited in this regard.

I hope you mean the specifics of the numbers and not Mr. Oldfield in general. Heck, you could probably catch a ferry across and *walk* to Hergest Ridge. I'd have to fly...

If we assume approx. 25 million albums. Then he probably has approx. 5000 Worshippers. If we assume 10 WP/head (in generic cases) he has 50,000WP which would make him a Hero-deity - provided he hadn't expended any WP!?

Hope that helps!?

I think his total sales to date is more like 40 million, but that still leaves him in the same category. Hm... Interesting to think how many modern celebrities and world leaders have enough people who worship them to elevate them to deityhood. What about Elvis? I think I asked this before, but does his being dead get in the way?

--Impeesa--

 

[Anubis]

First of all, Ea buddy, I have NO clue how that formula works . . . I don't think most D&D3 players know ANYTHING about calculus, much less enough to work out that formula. It's a nice idea, but those of use with no knowledge in such things find that unusable. Cool that you can do things like that though, man. If I had an IQ as high as yours (mine's 150, so yours must be up closer to 200... genius!) I'd be able to tweak this thing easy!

Now, back to UK. There's obviously no way for me to make further argument about supernatural armor until your system is made public, so I'll stop now and await your work so that I can check it out more fully. I do wanna discuss the penalties to dexterity, however.

First off, by your proposed system, heavy armor becomes COMPLETELY useless, and AC is balanced against PCs. I find this to be totally unbalancing and un fair. A Party of 11th level characters will usually have close to 30 AC, and their enemies have attacks at +10 to +20 while having AC that is relatively easy to hit. With your proposed changes, the AC of PCs will drop by an average of 5, making defending attacks impossible for PCs! With those changes, all current CRs would have to go up by at least 2 to make up the difference!

Most enemies have low AC to begin with, and most of them don't wear regular armor. Still, lowering effective dexterity makes no sense unless you put the minimum of 10 in place. Otherwise, lighter armor is ALWAYS better!

Here's an example . . . First off, with the new system, ALL PCs will put their best roll in Dexterity or die in the first battle. Let's assume now that all PCs have a 15 Dex to begin with. Under the core rules, your fighter with full plate would have AC 19, your rogue with leather would have AC 14, your cleric with breastplate would have AC 17, and your wizard with nothing would have AC 12. Under your changes, the fighter would now have AC 16, the rogue would have AC 11, your cleric would have AC 15, and your wizard would have AC 11. Add shields to the mix, and the ACs change to Fighter 17 and Cleric 16. Do you see the problem yet? This change would favor the wizard class GREATLY while impeding the fighter classes. No feat should have to be used to counter this.

Yes, it IS more realistic, but it is GROSSLY unbalancing. Not to mention you'd have to change EVERYTHING. (What would you do about mithril armor and amulet's of natural armor?)