D&D 4E The WotC designers will be bashing 4e once 5e is announced . . .

Grog said:
Or, you know, maybe it's because in 2000, 3rd edition had only been out for a few months and nobody had enough experience playing it yet to figure out what the problems were?

Definitely.

I'm also going to say this: the science of game design has come a long, long way in the last ten years. Not just in RPGs, but in board games, computer games, and ccgs. I think 3e represents an important stage in the development of D&D, but not everything about it worked perfectly.

Monster design, in particular, only really began to be properly examined with MM3 and then MM4.

Cheers!
 

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Grog said:
But I guess it's now fashionable to disparage the motives of people who disagree with you.

Ad hominem attacks are so old that the name for them is Latin. Sadly, nothing new. : [

MerricB said:
Definitely.

I'm also going to say this: the science of game design has come a long, long way in the last ten years. Not just in RPGs, but in board games, computer games, and ccgs. I think 3e represents an important stage in the development of D&D, but not everything about it worked perfectly.

It sure has. Back when 3rd Edition was new, and I first learned about unified ability scores, unified dice & test resolution mechanics, a complete skill system, and the special ability system (feats), well, I knew D&D was taking a huge leap. Back in 2000, 3rd Edition changed everything by carrying roleplaying boldly forward into the mid-90s.
 

Shortman McLeod said:
A huge one is monster design. I remember the early days of 3e how everyone was raving about the brilliance of "intuitive" monster stats in 3e and how "finally" monsters and PCs had the same rules governing their design.

Now they trumpet what is, essentially, a return to the monster design philosophy of AD&D 1e/2e. And everyone cheers!
not all of us. :(

But, yeah. Designers should be excited about what they're changing. You can't fault them for looking for problems, if they're looking for things to improve.
 

shurai said:
Back when 3rd Edition was new, and I first learned about unified ability scores, unified dice & test resolution mechanics, a complete skill system, and the special ability system (feats), well, I knew D&D was taking a huge leap. Back in 2000, 3rd Edition changed everything by carrying roleplaying boldly forward into the mid-90s.

I was really excited about 3e back in 1999. AD&D 2e had some elements that I could never get the hang on, no matter ho long I played (hello, THAC0!). 3e, at the time, promised a simpler, more elegant, unified system.

However, there are now certain elements of 3(.5)e that I have grown to dislike:
  • Skills and skill points (not all skills are equally useful, yet all have the same base cost; cross-class skills are too expensive [resource-wise] to be worth it [unless you're cross-classing in some already less-than-useful-skill]. The idea beyond skill points is wonderful, but the implementation, especially when creating higher-level characters, is not.)
  • Over-dependence on magic items (the so-called "Christmas tree" effect): I loathe and despise it. High-level characters are just walking piles of magic items. The character itself, without his "toys" is virtually helpless against any appropriate CRs.
  • The 15-minute adventuring at high(er) levels.
  • Grapple rules. I've played a dedicated grappler druid for 13 levels (well, 8, actually, since he only became a grappler when he gained wild shape at 5th) and grapple rules always eluded me. The two clarifications on grappling by WotC haven't really helped.
  • Over-dependence on ability scores. High ability scores were always more desirable in D&D, but in 3(.5)e that difference is so much more obvious. A character with 18 in his or her primary ability score is much better than the one with 14. This also makes classes that suffer from MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency; such as monks or paladins) much harder to play. [Incidentally, the wizard has proven himself as virtually the only SAD (Single Ability Dependency) character class in D&D -- he only requires a good Int score and a passable Con (and maybe Dex) score. Everything else is a dump stat. Thus, wizard is just about the only class that can afford an 18 in his primary stat with the 25 point buy method.]
Also, the enormous list of accessories complicated things further. Certainly, the amount of accessories and additional gaming materials for 3(.5) never approached insane amounts from 2e, but the content of the said accessories was different. In 2e, there wasn't really that much additional material that you could pick after character creation. You had your kit that could only be taken at character creation, and weapon and nonweapon proficiencies. That was, basically, it. The spellcasters could add new spells to their lists, and there were new magic items (but crafting even a simple scroll required at least one quest/adventure, and you couldn't [by the RAW] buy or sell magic items, so you were pretty much stuck with whatever your DM handed out).

The 3.5 accessories, OTOH, offer lots of stuff available to characters throughout their careers (feats, prestige classes, new magic items, and, of course, spells). Cross-referencing 14 different books just to create a character you want to play is rather tedious (yes, my example is [slightly] exaggerated, but you get the general idea]). Again, creating a character above 1st-level with that in mind can be really cumbersome.

And this brings me to NPC creation and monster advancement. It sucks, plain and simple. To challenge my highish-level group with a BBEG spellcaster, I have to spend an extraordinary amount of time on his creation. Even if I skip details that really won't be used by the said NPC (like most skills), selecting feats, spells and magic items takes too much time.

All this has made me dislike DMing. Back in 2e days, I DM fairly regularly, but with the 3e and it's inherent complexities and bookkeeping, I do it only occasionally, as a backup DM for the backup DM :)

That's why, while I really enjoyed 3.5 rules, I'm really looking forward to 4e.
 


We'll go through it again in eight years or so, when 5e gets announced.

better than that. 3.5 was done a couple of years after to "fix" the problems of 3.0. When that was done, I think it was Monte Cook (or another designer) who claimed that it screwed up the 5 year plan they had in place. hmmm.... 2003 +5 years = 2008.

so the question becomes, will they "fix" 4e in 2011 with 4.5 and 5e in 2016, or go straight for the kill with 5e in 2013?

side note, I saw it mentioned that they started 4e back in 2005, so they could start planning 5e in 2010.
 

Umbran said:
If they come out and list the things that they feel don't work well, they're "bashing their own game".

And if they stayed silent, and gave no reasoning at all for most of the changes, would they get a good reception? No, then it would be grist for the "change for the sake of putting out a money-grubbing edition" argument!

So, if they justify themselves, they get pounced on. If they don't, same thing. How are these guys supposed to win?

Did you happen to see the 'commercial' where they bashed the three previous editions? You know, the "I grapple" one where the devs all acted like the most moronic, negative stereotypes of D&D players until they started playing 4E?

If that's not bashing, then I don't know what is. It offended me as a player of the game.
 

Grog said:
But I guess it's now fashionable to disparage the motives of people who disagree with you.

Nah, that's been around for ages.

Tak: "Thog! Am you sure you want go west, tracks go south!"
Thog: "Oh! Tak want lead tribe now?"
 

Pale said:
If that's not bashing, then I don't know what is.

I took it as comedy. A loving tribute to past editions, and some of the quirks with the rules. It didn't enter my mind that it could be considered bashing. I thought it was an amusing trifle.

/M
 

delericho said:
Now, this is a genuine case. However, over the past several years, a lot of DMs have found that this change hasn't had the impact that was expected. Advancing monsters, customising monsters, and designing new monsters is quite a chore, far more than it should be.

Don't tell me I'm the only person who just eyeballs it? Take a creature from the Monster Manual, give it a level in this or that, enlarge its size (love that size change chart!), maybe give it a new feat or two, and viola... always worked for me. 3.x gives you all the tools to fiddle with the monsters, so I fiddle with them. I've rarely if ever bothered to do the exact "monster level progression" -- that, I will agree, is CONFUSING -- but it's nice to have a bunch of options listed out that I can pick and choose from. (Like the list of monster templates in the Savage Species book... hurray, I can make a Lizardfolk Wight or an Insectoid Ogre!)

Granted, I don't necessarily have any idea what the resulting mutant's CR is supposed to be, but...

Jason
 

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