D&D (2024) The WotC Playtest Surveys Have A Flaw

[Micah Sweet]

I think the bigger problem is the idea that they can satisfy everyone, period, with any decision they make in the game. We have proven time and again that the only thing we love more than D&D, is arguing about D&D.

But I'm not trying to win an argument with Doug, I'm trying to make sure the final product is enjoyed by the most people possible. Assuming that "if they do what I want, it will be a success" is kinda weird.

I don't see any reason to fill out the survey if you're presenting opinions on it that you don't share.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Nah.

WotC may read some of the surveys (it's literally not possible they're reading all of them in any way that matters if they're getting 20-40K though), but their key metric, they've stressed over and over again is 70%+ approval of an idea.

You must have really hated 2E lol given that was exactly what that was, by the standards of the day.

I think the real issue there is more that D&D tonally is edging perhaps a little too close to tween and younger cartoons in tone and in terms of what it actually depicts in language and art, despite the fact that the bulk of the playerbase is in their teens, twenties, and thirties.

And I will say one thing - yeah, in 5-10 years there are going to be a lot of kids raised on ultra-twee material who are going to be goth/punk/grunge etc. as hell, and so I'm not sure WotC's very focused "Make it twee, make it safe!" approach to D&D is going to pay off all that well. The sheer lack of competition may help though.

Yeah the complete lack of direction and just relentless "rate everything" is deeply exhausting and means anything later in the survey is going to get less seriously considered than earlier stuff. Sure you can say "No opinion" over and over, but it's just as much work as having an opinion!

I played 2e with 1e sensibilities. The rules similarities made that pretty easy.

 

[Micah Sweet]

See, but I do. Because yes, my tweenage nieces and nephews will grow up into teenagers and young adults, but more tweens will be following behind them. That age demographic is always going to be there, and will always be important: that is the foundation of the hobby, in both my experience and opinion. We can't neglect it.

We also don't need to cater near-exclusively to it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

We also don't need to cater near-exclusively to it.

One of the great advantages of D&D and AD&D being separate games that existed at the same time was that D&D could - and did - aim more kid-friendly - and AD&D aimed at more teen-and-up.

I think what this means for the modern era is that we kind of need a new kid-friendly D&D to stop all D&D having to be kid-friendly on the off-chance an eight-year-old reads it or something.

I say this as someone who has very liberal-minded parents re: media but who did confiscate an RPG for being too horrifying when I was eight lol (The Riddling Reaver).

 

[Thomas Shey]

That said, the main purpose of a playtest isn't (or shouldn't be) reaching a consensus among the playerbase. Sure, when something isn't well received, the devs tend to either correct it or explain the reasons behind the changes, but the main reason behind a playtest is finding problems and ironing out the bugs.

But of course if you don't define "problems" and "bugs" as "things the player base dislikes", it can be hard to identify them at all. There's no game rule result so obviously bad that someone doesn't swear by it, after all.

Also, considering the way the playtest packets have been released, with each packet presenting only a few elements rather than the complete picture of how the new rules are supposed to interact with each other, I'd argue than the process is flawed for more reasons than just the number of people actually taking the time to answer the surveys.

Almost certainly true, though here I have some sympathy: if you don't approach it piecemeal you, first, reduce the number of people who will bother to engage with it, and second, make processing the reactions almost impossible.

I'm not sure any of this matters to WotC, tho, since both 5e and One D&D's playtests were probably about garnering goodwill from the community, rather than anything else. It doesn't really matter if the amount of feedback they get is adequate, what matters is that they're actively asking for feedback and reacting accordingly.
Getting useful feedback in the process is probably just a nice bonus.

Of course, "reacting accordingly" to many people involves, well, actually showing signs the feedback mattered.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'd be happy to do that.

This comes down to the DM Experience. DMs may not purchase the most books when compared to all players combined, but they are an integral part to delivering a quality play experience. So DM support would make the game better, but wouldn't maximize profit (like, say, selling new skins on your VTT avatar might).

The DM Experience in 5e is bad. The DMG is frequently cited as one of the worst books for the edition. There are numerous threads, videos, and articles about the DM Shortage. WotC would have addressed this if they actually cared about the quality of D&D.

The DMG encounter guidelines don't work. The CR system doesn't work. The DMG provides little helpful advice to DMs. It's a worthless book that should've been revised YEARS ago while DMs have struggled through this mess of a system.

But, let's forget the DMG (most people do anyway), and move to other tools. What should WotC be offering for FREE to aid the DMs who basically are doing volunteer work for WotC to keep people playing their game?

• Free Encounter Calculator to help us plan battles by plugging in the monsters from the sources we own
• Free Treasure reward calculator
• Free indices and guides to all of our books (of course, we should have to purchase our books - I only want a database with a page number)
• Tools such as Initiative trackers
• Online character builder that can export to PDF

Revised DMG, free tools to help us run games. What else?

• Good quality DM Screens with the charts we actually use on them.
• Short adventures that don't take a year to run, which we can purchase individually or at least download.
• PDFs that we can search, print out handouts, etc.
• Errata that improves the game as needed to repair obviously broken rules and underpowered options
• Optional rules that recognize some tables prefer tactical depth - that actually work with the system. (Something like Tome of Battle, Skills & Powers, etc., would've given 5e more "legs")

None of these suggestions would make the game sell better, necessarily. Some might even lose money, but I think most of these would improve the quality of life for DMs, which could translate to a better overall gaming experience.

Perhaps the D&D experience they actually want is simply more $, and all their decisions are based on whether or not they will lead to that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I never bought a 2014 version to begin with. I do like the sound of a anniversary edition though. I dont think its a safe assumption that everybody already owns the book so wont buy a new one.

Doesn't make sense to me, but some people really care about art I guess.

 

[Micah Sweet]

My reaction on reading this from the start (and to be clear, I don't really have a dog in the fight--as I've noted before I'm not a D&D person proper) is I'm more dubious about the methodology than the numbers. It sounds like they may well be, effectively, screening out some non-trivial parts of their audience they don't want to be if they want it to serve a purpose other than being able to say they did surveys.

Perhaps saying they did surveys is what this is about. In short, liability.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Perhaps saying they did surveys is what this is about. In short, liability.

More likely PR, if that's the case.

 

[mamba]

I think what this means for the modern era is that we kind of need a new kid-friendly D&D to stop all D&D having to be kid-friendly on the off-chance an eight-year-old reads it or something.

do we need simpler rules, or just different adventures

Not sure BX was an easier than 5e, so unless you want to bring the introductory age down settings / adventures might be enough. There probably already is some 3pp stuff (Humblewood?)