The YAARGH Armor Revision
- Thread starter seasong
- Start date
green slime
First Post
Hay seasong:
I didn't think you were being snippy, I was just rambling, which I tend to do at times when interesting subjects cross my bow. I'm the one that should apologise
I'll try to remain more focused in the future, when posting your comments.
My point I was trying to get across was this:
The DC is wrong for creating Plate armour. NO WAY can an apprentice bang it out. Yes I completely forgot about Skill Focus, that was stupid of me. Perhaps the base should be 15 + armour bonus, in the core rules. I'll go away and think more on this.
In almost any (RL) economy I can think of, a luxury item that is produced for the stinking rich will be overpriced in comparisson to raw materials. The stinking rich WANT to pay more for their luxury items, so that every tom, dick, and harry don't have one. In fact they even want it to cost even more, so the other stinking rich b*st*rd over the hill can't afford one either (or at least, this year's model!).
Even further, full plate is not just plates of beaten steel. There is some mysteries that we have not solved, such as the varying hardness across the plates, a property they were able to reliably repeat, and yet which we today we are baffled as to how they were able to accomplish this, given their technological level. Obviously there were secrets of the masters, only handed to their trusted apprentices.
Lastly The travel expenses for creating a plate mail are far greater than for a chainmail. Why? Because a platemail was fitted to the wearer. Often exact measurements of various body parts were required. In a day prior to a post service, the measurements had to be carried across the continent by messengers, along highways that required exhorbitant fees and tolls to use.
In contrast, a chainmail need only be a decent fit to function. Whether it was XXL or merely L hardly mattered at all to the wearer.
By merely publishing a "artisan's cost", a false impression will be given to players and perhaps unexperienced DMs.
Perhaps a "recommended retail price" with a note as to why Plate cost was marked up so horrendously much in RL? (I'm still of the opinion that revealing the "artisan's cost" to players will lead to strife. Suddenly every play group will contain a master armourer...)
Another thought: Not all the exceptional (Int 14) artisan's will choose to be armourers... Given the large number of Craft skills, and the fact that many skills be more readily available to learn in village environs... (But I waffle again! My apologies!)
I didn't think you were being snippy, I was just rambling, which I tend to do at times when interesting subjects cross my bow. I'm the one that should apologise
I'll try to remain more focused in the future, when posting your comments.
My point I was trying to get across was this:
The DC is wrong for creating Plate armour. NO WAY can an apprentice bang it out. Yes I completely forgot about Skill Focus, that was stupid of me. Perhaps the base should be 15 + armour bonus, in the core rules. I'll go away and think more on this.
In almost any (RL) economy I can think of, a luxury item that is produced for the stinking rich will be overpriced in comparisson to raw materials. The stinking rich WANT to pay more for their luxury items, so that every tom, dick, and harry don't have one. In fact they even want it to cost even more, so the other stinking rich b*st*rd over the hill can't afford one either (or at least, this year's model!).
Even further, full plate is not just plates of beaten steel. There is some mysteries that we have not solved, such as the varying hardness across the plates, a property they were able to reliably repeat, and yet which we today we are baffled as to how they were able to accomplish this, given their technological level. Obviously there were secrets of the masters, only handed to their trusted apprentices.
Lastly The travel expenses for creating a plate mail are far greater than for a chainmail. Why? Because a platemail was fitted to the wearer. Often exact measurements of various body parts were required. In a day prior to a post service, the measurements had to be carried across the continent by messengers, along highways that required exhorbitant fees and tolls to use.
In contrast, a chainmail need only be a decent fit to function. Whether it was XXL or merely L hardly mattered at all to the wearer.
By merely publishing a "artisan's cost", a false impression will be given to players and perhaps unexperienced DMs.
Perhaps a "recommended retail price" with a note as to why Plate cost was marked up so horrendously much in RL? (I'm still of the opinion that revealing the "artisan's cost" to players will lead to strife. Suddenly every play group will contain a master armourer...)
Another thought: Not all the exceptional (Int 14) artisan's will choose to be armourers... Given the large number of Craft skills, and the fact that many skills be more readily available to learn in village environs... (But I waffle again! My apologies!)
green slime
First Post
seasong said:
And finally, green slime, do the costs make more sense now?
OOooooo dear! My last post was prior to reading this! I'm off to bed, its 04:10 am after a night of fleeing drow and having +2 full plate dissolve at the touch of a rust monster! (I got the laughs being a DM and all)
I'll read it tomorrow! I promise!
green slime
First Post
Actually read it quickly now, I was so intrigued!
Looks great! Really well written!
I'll comment some of the other more crunchy stuff on the morrow!
Good night!
Looks great! Really well written!
I'll comment some of the other more crunchy stuff on the morrow!
Good night!
seasong
First Post
I agree. However, the DC very neatly works with the original PH cost and crafting rules to produce a one year production time - I'm inclined to think that that's how they decided on it. That, and they didn't give much thought to ability score demographicsgreen slime said:
.
This point goes in the "need better crafting rules" column.
This was an oversight on my part. Thanks.
But one which is less false than the one already being given to them
. Really, any attempt to stake out a definitive price gives a false impression - the impression that there was a definitive price that didn't wobble with the weather and meddle with the market.
They already do... the big issue is the time sink involved, but aside from that, players will take armorer skills as long as they can save just enough on costs to be able to afford it earlier than they would have before.
Of course not - there'd be too many armorers for the business! In fact, I would be willing to bet that more dwarves are armorers than INT 14 humans, just because an INT 12 dwarf is better at it (and more restricted in craft selections) than the INT 14 human. I was just making the point that there is a huge pool of talent available for level-1 artisans
.
seasong
First Post
The Problem of Craft
2.7% of the population has an INT of 14+. If we assume one wizard per 500 people (practically one per village!), that still leaves 2.5% of the population. In regional population of 200,000 (sufficient to potentially support a city or two), that means 5,000 potential crafters of all sorts. Since most crafters will be experts, they will have 32 skill points at 1st level and +8 skill points per level thereafter, and so will be able to completely max out eight skills per level! Thus, an armorer will tend to also be a weaponsmith, blacksmith and leatherworker; an alchemist will tend to also be a healer and herbalist, with additional knowledge skills in anatomy and other rarified fields.
A military of 3,000 soldiers will need about 150 armorers to keep them in repair and occasionally replace armor, which still leaves plenty of other crafters.
For skill levels, it can generally be assumed that a crafter will take Skill Focus for his most precious skill (either for the money it makes him or by necessity for living, such as by a state decree). Human experts will have the advantage of two such feats, and will be able to master potentially more fields. Dwarves will lack the second feat, but get a stacking +2 to all stone/metal related skills, and will be able to get a net +4 in crafts of that nature (thus, they will not be as broadly skilled as humans, but humans will have difficulty competing with them in their fields).
A 1st level human crafter should end up with a net +6 skill in half a dozen skills, and a +8 in two. A dwarf will end up with +6 in a half dozen skills (+8 for stone/metal related) and +8 in one (+10 for stone/metal related). Each level thereafter merely raises the level by +1. Note that dwarves with an INT of 12 are still more competitive in their own field than the humans are.
Assuming dwarves compose 2% of the kingdom's population (4,000 dwarves), roughly 250 of those dwarves will have INT 12+. That will likely be a sizable chunk of the kingdom's armorers, weaponsmiths and blacksmiths... and as pointed out above, each dwarf will likely have the skills to fill all of those roles.
Dwarves with INT 12 will need to be 2nd level before they can craft masterwork equipment; otherwise, there is nothing that they can not take 10 on a check for (humans with INT 14 need to be 3rd level to make masterwork equipment with a take 10).
2.7% of the population has an INT of 14+. If we assume one wizard per 500 people (practically one per village!), that still leaves 2.5% of the population. In regional population of 200,000 (sufficient to potentially support a city or two), that means 5,000 potential crafters of all sorts. Since most crafters will be experts, they will have 32 skill points at 1st level and +8 skill points per level thereafter, and so will be able to completely max out eight skills per level! Thus, an armorer will tend to also be a weaponsmith, blacksmith and leatherworker; an alchemist will tend to also be a healer and herbalist, with additional knowledge skills in anatomy and other rarified fields.
A military of 3,000 soldiers will need about 150 armorers to keep them in repair and occasionally replace armor, which still leaves plenty of other crafters.
For skill levels, it can generally be assumed that a crafter will take Skill Focus for his most precious skill (either for the money it makes him or by necessity for living, such as by a state decree). Human experts will have the advantage of two such feats, and will be able to master potentially more fields. Dwarves will lack the second feat, but get a stacking +2 to all stone/metal related skills, and will be able to get a net +4 in crafts of that nature (thus, they will not be as broadly skilled as humans, but humans will have difficulty competing with them in their fields).
A 1st level human crafter should end up with a net +6 skill in half a dozen skills, and a +8 in two. A dwarf will end up with +6 in a half dozen skills (+8 for stone/metal related) and +8 in one (+10 for stone/metal related). Each level thereafter merely raises the level by +1. Note that dwarves with an INT of 12 are still more competitive in their own field than the humans are.
Assuming dwarves compose 2% of the kingdom's population (4,000 dwarves), roughly 250 of those dwarves will have INT 12+. That will likely be a sizable chunk of the kingdom's armorers, weaponsmiths and blacksmiths... and as pointed out above, each dwarf will likely have the skills to fill all of those roles.
Dwarves with INT 12 will need to be 2nd level before they can craft masterwork equipment; otherwise, there is nothing that they can not take 10 on a check for (humans with INT 14 need to be 3rd level to make masterwork equipment with a take 10).
handforged
First Post
Don't forget that most armorers would have an apprentice, who even if only a commoner with Int 10 and 4 ranks in the appropriate craft skill could take 10 and using the masterwork tools provided by his master, provide as additional +2 aid bonus to the skill check.
~hf
~hf
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