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D&D 5E The Youngest Grognard?

While I think this is a place where the term has changed over time, I feel like I should point out that Gary Alan Fine's Shared Fantasy describes a grognard simply as this:

"a war gamer, particularly one concerned with extreme realism."

This would've been in the early 80s. By that original definition, a grognard could be any age. But the context he was writing in it probably still mostly referred to the older wargamers that weren't fans of these newfangled "Rules For Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable With Paper And Pencil And Miniature Figures."
 

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While I think this is a place where the term has changed over time, I feel like I should point out that Gary Alan Fine's Shared Fantasy describes a grognard simply as this:

"a war gamer, particularly one concerned with extreme realism."

This would've been in the early 80s. By that original definition, a grognard could be any age. But the context he was writing in it probably still mostly referred to the older wargamers that weren't fans of these newfangled "Rules For Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable With Paper And Pencil And Miniature Figures."

My suggestion is that it's quite possible that if you didn't get into D&D from the era where it was splitting off from wargaming, that you can't possibly be a grogard since there is certainly a generation of players who are older and have an older perspective than you have or even have insight into. From my experience, even the players that did become fans of that new fangled RPG "fad" brought with them a certain sensibility and experience that is distinctive from what prevails in later generations, including based on my impressions what seems to prevail amongst OSR fans.

Certainly if I go to a meeting of the local board gaming society, when I'm thinking of assigning the "grognard" to any group, it's the bearded folks in the corner playing a game of "War in the Pacific" that appears to have been going on for longer than the war being simulated did. They have a different perspective than gamers that got into board games after the European board gaming renaissance, and their perspective on things often is observable even when and if they also love games other than wargames. But I can't imagine anyone who grew up on video games really embracing games like Star Fleet Battles or Car Wars, or other highly detailed games which in retrospect where proto-video games meant to run on the player's wetware, and if you don't come from that era then I think you don't get the era of "lonely fun" and obsession with detail and realism that often marked it.

Anyone Gary Fine was referring to as a grognard 1983 regardless of whether they were 16 or 40 then is a grognard today, and anyone a member of the culture he was describing in that book - even if not considered a grognard then - certainly has title to the term now I would think.
 

..it's an attitude, and Zard' certainly as the 'tude.

I will not dispute the right of a Grognard to accept a younger campaigner as one of their own. I dispute only that unless you've been with the game since the early days, you can speak of yourself as one without dispute. There is always someone with more tours of duty and a longer beard who can say, "You kids, get off my lawn."
 

Y'know, Zard, the thread title should've been "The Littlest Grognard," would've sounded like the world's worst Rankin/Bass animated special.


I will not dispute the right of a Grognard to accept a younger campaigner as one of their own. I dispute only that unless you've been with the game since the early days, you can speak of yourself as one without dispute. There is always someone with more tours of duty and a longer beard who can say, "You kids, get off my lawn."
IDK if /I/ can really claim grognard status by attitude. I'm not enamored of the OSR (I'll dust off an old game rather than get into a clone). I think I just played too much not-D&D in the 80s to be properly grognardly. (I like to think I've got the old-man bitterness & cynicism down pat, though.)

I always felt like I was playing catch-up with D&D, even having started in '80, I collected all the Dragon Magazines back to, I think it was 19, trying to get a feel for what I'd missed. ;) Now, 5 or 6 years seems like nuth'n.

And, yeah, the older gamers back then were wargamers, and thought we kids playing wargames at 1 figure = 1 soldier, and speaking in first person about being elves and casting sleep were just silly (to put it politely), and there was a contingent of 0e/Arduin fans who looked down on A&D, too.
 
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The youngest 1E grog who played while it was in print would likely be in the early 40s although I suppose a 5 years old could have played 1E in 1989.

Hah - you're not far off from me. I'm 38, and began playing when I was 8 - in 1989. This November will mark my 30th year of playing Dungeons and Dragons. Now, the first set I ever bought was the 2E boxed set, but before I actually owned anything, I played with Mr. D who still used his old material. Being that I started so young, I have no idea what he was really running back then, but around 95 they switched to 2E. So I'm a less-knowledgeable-about-1e grognard, but still stuck in the old ways for sure.

... and by Grognard, I simply mean that I still enjoy the much higher difficulty feel of play, incorporate older ideas into new systems (Paladins are Lawful Good, by Gods!), etc.

Like you, I play all the modern editions and like them just peachy. I still whip out a 2E game at least once a year.
 

"Grognard" comes to us from the French from "grumbler", and originally referred to those veteran campaigners who - having been with Napoléon since the beginning - were entitled to speak their mind. The effective meaning is "an old soldier" so to be young and a grognard is a contradiction in terms.

To me, to be a grognard you have to have begun play no later than 1e AD&D or "red box" basic, preferably prior to the printing of the "Unearthed Arcana" - though if you want to be purist about it, I would accept an argument that you had to have come to the game in the OD&D era before the printing of the 1e Monster Manual.

I would not accept a later definition of what it means to be a grognard until such time as the OG's die off and there is no generation old enough to view the oldest left as youngsters. Rather than seeing you as one of the youngest grognards, by starting your first campaign in 1994 I see you as one of the oldest non-grognards. No one that started play after the printing of 2e counts as a grognard for me, and basically I think we're still at least 20 years out from any need to define such late bloomers as grognards.

The youngest grognard by the strictest definition is probably about 49 right now, probably playing as an 8 or 9 year old with older relatives in 1979. I can't really conceive of anyone younger having the maturity. A slightly looser definition would put the youngest grognards at around 43. But in either case, even if you are 43 if you didn't begin gaming until you were 13 or 14, you aren't a grognard because you don't remotely have a case that you've been with the game since the beginning. You don't remember first hand the original publications of 1e AD&D, the Red Box appearing in toy stores, the Dungeon & Dragons cartoon or the related toys, the first publication of Chronicles of the Dragonlance or when Dragon felt very much like an amateur 'zine. You don't remember Boot Hill, Top Secret, and Traveller. By the time you got into the game, it was Vampire the Masquerade.

And I'm vaguely familiar with the culture of OD&D as it spread from college war gaming groups into the fringe groups that made up the experimental 1970's, but I was too young to actually be a part of it so I would accept the judgment that I'm not a grognard either, having missed the cut off by 3 or 4 years.



My suggestion is that it's quite possible that if you didn't get into D&D from the era where it was splitting off from wargaming, that you can't possibly be a grogard since there is certainly a generation of players who are older and have an older perspective than you have or even have insight into. From my experience, even the players that did become fans of that new fangled RPG "fad" brought with them a certain sensibility and experience that is distinctive from what prevails in later generations, including based on my impressions what seems to prevail amongst OSR fans.

Certainly if I go to a meeting of the local board gaming society, when I'm thinking of assigning the "grognard" to any group, it's the bearded folks in the corner playing a game of "War in the Pacific" that appears to have been going on for longer than the war being simulated did. They have a different perspective than gamers that got into board games after the European board gaming renaissance, and their perspective on things often is observable even when and if they also love games other than wargames. But I can't imagine anyone who grew up on video games really embracing games like Star Fleet Battles or Car Wars, or other highly detailed games which in retrospect where proto-video games meant to run on the player's wetware, and if you don't come from that era then I think you don't get the era of "lonely fun" and obsession with detail and realism that often marked it.

Anyone Gary Fine was referring to as a grognard 1983 regardless of whether they were 16 or 40 then is a grognard today, and anyone a member of the culture he was describing in that book - even if not considered a grognard then - certainly has title to the term now I would think.

Well, I suppose I qualify by your definition. I am STILL a Wargamer to a degree, though the last one I bought was probably a few years ago at this point.

I wasn't into the miniature wargames that many of the D&D'ers were (chainmail is an example of such, as are the Napoleonic miniature wargames), normally more of a board wargamer. Gygax was heavily involved in that and even created some non-miniature wargames himself (I believe he told me one time that his favorite wargame was actually Waterloo, which was a non-miniature wargame, if I recall correctly, though my memory is failing at some points these days).

I'm not sure how I feel about the definition you put there though, for some reason I feel really old in comparison to others here now...

I am still into boardgames as well (and have quite the collection, I even have a LOT of modern boardgames these days, some would say I'm a bigger boardgamer than RPG player by FAR).

The Wargamer is far smaller in population percentage today (anecdotal personal observance) than back before D&D, with some increases recently, though still very small in comparison to the boardgaming groups and RPG gamers overall (personal observance, perhaps there are places where it is booming and far larger, but not that I have observed recently).

I tend to lean more heavily towards older styles of balancing with numbers, charts, and other things than the new methods they have with leaner, quicker to play, and slimmer wargames that sometime incorporate Euro elements into them than the old style games.

Anyways, I could probably talk FAR TOO MUCH on board games and other things (wrong forum for it for me to do that though), so rather I'll shut up now.

Just thought to post as when reading your statements, I felt really old for some reason all of a sudden. Interestingly enough, I suppose the youngest of those that I knew or knew about playing at the beginning probably would be in their 40s or 50s these days.

I DO know a couple of kids (I taught them...so there's that) that started 1e and BECMI in the past decade...but with the influences of modern RPGs and other things, I probably wouldn't list them as having the same attitudes as the supposed grognards, or having the same approaches. For some reason, they just have different attitudes and approaches than the those from several decades ago, even if it is with the same game (AD&D in this case, have not taught them OD&D...books are too valuable to have them handle them much these days).
 
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I mean, I started in the early 90's with AD&D also, and I only just turned 34.

OTOH I certainly don't match any acceptable definition of grognard, not the least of which reason that I'd shun any version of D&D now apart from 5e or maybe 4th and I just ditched D&D for a PbtA game, so...
 

What if the player started in 2012 with the 1e "premium" reprints?

A few months before these came out several of us old Grognards & the owner of the local shop had set up a 1e game.
It was 1e because that's what the owner was familiar with & wouldn't have to learn a whole new system. We set it on the shops slowest night & the owner DM'd Hommlet. We had 3 players + the DM.
Every now & then there'd be pauses in the game as he had to help a customer etc. But like I said, we'd intentionally set it on the slowest night. We were just playing, killing time on slow as molasses Tue evenings, so there wasn't any rush in how much we needed to accomplish.

About 1/2 way through Hommlet we attracted the attention of a couple of disillusioned early 20's MTG players. They'd never played an RPG in their life.
They sat in on a session. We taught them how to play. A few weeks later they asked if one of their friends could join. We taught him to play. He in turn brought his two best friends. We taught them to play.
During this time the special editions of 1e were just hitting the shelf. The youngest of this new blood was 19.

So in 2012 we were selling brand new 1e books to 19-22 year olds.

This led to a 1e game that ran for the next 4.5 years & several new and still going gaming groups.
And that former 19 year old? He's a regular in the PF group I play in. He also equally prefers 1e & PF.

So our youngest Grognard is now 26.

That is an awesome story.
 

But I can't imagine anyone who grew up on video games really embracing games like Star Fleet Battles or Car Wars, or other highly detailed games which in retrospect where proto-video games meant to run on the player's wetware, and if you don't come from that era then I think you don't get the era of "lonely fun" and obsession with detail and realism that often marked it.

So because I've had video game systems** since before I had D&D*** you can't imagine me loving SFB, Car Wars, or some other awesome fiddly chit filled game* (likely from Avalon Hill or SPI - though I do love Dawn Patrol by TSR) that most of todays "kids" would think beyond tedious?

*Those Avalon Hill/SPI games? My brother & I were playing those with Dad when we were 8 & 9.
**My still working {!} Atari 2600 hails from Xmas '79. (I was 10)
And then it was an Intellivision, and an NES, SNES, Sega Genesis, PS1/2/3, XB/XB360/and now an XB One I salvaged from my stores demo unit when Toys R Us died last year.
***Basic set, Christmas '80. (I was 11)
I think it's safe to say "I grew up with video games". As did many others who've enjoyed SFB, Car Wars, etc.
 
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Grognard has taken on a few meanings over the decades since it first came to be used in the gaming community. Might be helpful to pin down the definition you want to use.
I thought it meant "grumpy old ba***rd who talks about how much better things used to be back in the day." At least that's how I classify myself :cool:
 

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