D&D (2024) Thematic 4 corners of the PHB subclasses

[mellored]

The contrasts seem less obvious for some of the classes.

He also acknowledged that some were not as clear as others.

And popularity also played a big role in what they picked.

 

[Yaarel]

A ranger steading with a dozen rangers living there, or a druidic circle compound with a couple dozen members, each do count as civilization. A small town of elves and gnomes that blends into the surrounding wilderness is civilization.

Yeah. Elves who are citizens of a town are members of a civilization. The towns probably have some kind of police force. There may be Elf Vengeance Paladins who keep help the peace of their elven civilization.

The elven town is the opposite of its surrounding wilderness.

There can be civilization that appears like wilderness, such as "wild farming".

 

[Yaarel]

I stand by the Vengeance Paladin being especially about civilization, urbanization, crime fighting, keeping the peace, and being a public servant.

That said.


On reading the Playtest descriptions, the Ancients "love the lifegiving things of the world, more than honor, courage, and justice." This seems to intentionally contrast Glory. Honor is quintessentially Glory, but where Glory strives for "heroism", the courage and justice" also apply. The contrast is a bit off and asymmetric, but it is something like appreciating nature versus seeking social status, hence wild life versus societal life.

In this way, the contrasts seem to "supposed" to be:

PALADIN
• Devotion (inspiration, positive reinforcement) / Vengeance (punishment, negative reinforcement)
• Ancients (wild life) / Glory (societal life)


I am fond of color coding the Paladin, according to the Arthurian knights and related symbolism.
• Devotion = white knight
• Vengeance = red knight
• Ancients = green knight
• Glory = blue knight

Here blue symbolizes "trusty" − reliable, strong, loyal, honest, faithful, principled − and here correlates solidarity with teammates and being heroes.

Red is ferocious military strength, passion, and occasionally devilry or magnanimity. More swat team, less traffic cop, plus occasional overreach and corruption, but also can be solid public servants.

There is no black knight here, because in D&D the black knight connotes the Evil Anti-Paladin. But for the symbolism, the color black more so connotes anonymity, with the identifying heraldry being covered over by the color black. Stories often have mysterious black knight defeat and humiliate the hero in a public duel, often by means of trickery or other surprising advantage, but then in a plot twist later on, turns out to become a powerful ally of the hero, such as a king who was fighting while disguised. The heros honorable response to being defeated is what impresses the black knight.

 

[Parmandur]

We can totally justify every Paladin subclass as being civilized. Even Oath of the Ancients is about respecting and protecting nature in a cooperative way. Respect for others is a basic theme of a civilized culture. Paladins tend to be team players, or justify their actions based on civilized tenets, any way you slice it.

I stand by the Vengeance Paladin being especially about civilization, urbanization, crime fighting, keeping the peace, and being a public servant.

That said.


On reading the Playtest descriptions, the Ancients "love the lifegiving things of the world, more than honor, courage, and justice." This seems to intentionally contrast Glory. Honor is quintessentially Glory, but where Glory strives for "heroism", the courage and justice" also apply. The contrast is a bit off and asymmetric, but it is something like appreciating nature versus seeking social status, hence wild life versus societal life.

In this way, the contrasts seem to "supposed" to be:

PALADIN
• Devotion (inspiration, positive reinforcement) / Vengeance (punishment, negative reinforcement)
• Ancients (wild life) / Glory (societal life)


I am fond of color coding the Paladin, according to the Arthurian knights and related symbolism.
• Devotion = white knight
• Vengeance = red knight
• Ancients = green knight
• Glory = blue knight

Here blue symbolizes "trusty" − reliable, strong, loyal, honest, faithful, principled − and here correlates solidarity with teammates and being heroes.

Red is ferocious military strength, passion, and occasionally devilry or magnanimity. More swat team, less traffic cop, plus occasional overreach and corruption, but also can be solid public servants.

There is no black knight here, because in D&D the black knight connotes the Evil Anti-Paladin. But for the symbolism, the color black more so connotes anonymity, with the identifying heraldry being covered over by the color black. Stories often have mysterious black knight defeat and humiliate the hero in a public duel, often by means of trickery or other surprising advantage, but then in a plot twist later on, turns out to become a powerful ally of the hero, such as a king who was fighting while disguised. The heros honorable response to being defeated is what impresses the black knight.

Worth noting that the 5E PHB specifically calls the Vengeance Paladin the Black Knight, as opposed to Devotion being a White Knight and the Ancoents being a Green Knight...

 

[Yaarel]

Worth noting that the 5E PHB specifically calls the Vengeance Paladin the Black Knight, as opposed to Devotion being a White Knight and the Ancoents being a Green Knight...

I know but, the description of Vengeance in the Playtest makes the Red Knight a better fit.

In D&D, the Black Knight is Evil. By contrast the Vengeance Oath is a ferocious fighter for justice, who is willing to enter "exigent circumstances".

 

[Parmandur]

I know but, the description of Vengeance in the Playtest makes the Red Knight a better fit.

In D&D, the Black Knight is Evil. By contrast the Vengeance Oath is ferocious fighter for justice.

Just saying, the design team playing around with these concepts thinks of the Vengence Paladin as the Black Knight.

To put too fine a point on it, it's Batman.

 

[Yaarel]

Just saying, the design team playing around with these concepts thinks of the Vengence Paladin as the Black Knight.

Heh, they might reconsider if they think about the Red Knight.

To put too fine a point on it, it's Batman.

Batman can be anything. As a shapeshifter, he is less clear as a specific model.

The Red Knight is also complex, with lightside and darkside.

 

[Yaarel]

The black knight symbolizes hiddenness, reclusiveness, or sinfulness, sometimes with repentance. The sinfulness matches the Antipaladin. But none of it matches accurately the Vengeance oath.

 

[Yaarel]

The red knight symbolizes passion, power, energy, painfulness, or sometimes wickedness or sometimes justice, with sublimation and magnanimity.

 

[Remathilis]

He also acknowledged that some were not as clear as others.

And popularity also played a big role in what they picked.

There are three factors in play:

All the PHB subclasses, minus a few cleric and wizard, were kept from 14 to 24.
Imported subs from Everything books had to be popular and played.
The subs had to fill a quadrant of options.

That put some classes in different design places then others. The classes that had only two options in the PHB have more design room than the ones with 3/4 choices filled. The cleric and wizard having to pair down options meant they ended up with very similar pairs (attack, protect, deceive, reveal). I also think they tried not to reuse the same themes if possible, which is why glamour (fey) isn't opposed by whisper (shadow) because fey/shadow is a ranger pairing. Obviously, they couldn't do that for every set.