They Killed Cap!

[Cthulhudrew]

Really? I might revive my comic-book hobby with Vertigo.

You might consider checking out "The Boys" by Garth Ennis, then. It was published by DC's Wildstorm imprint, but will be published by Dynamite now. It revolves around a group of normal humans investigating superheroes, and is sort of a "deconstructionist" kind of story- casting archetypal heroes (ie, thinly veiled Batman, etc.) in sort of twisted roles. Haven't read it myself, but may pick it up in TPB. It's gotten a lot of raves, and reportedly the reason DC decided to drop it is because of the irreverence with which it treats their iconic heroes. Ennis is, of course, the man behind Preacher.

(Warning, that Wiki link has spoilers about the series down the page, so read at your risk).

 

[Cthulhudrew]

I like it actually. He had a vision of the future, tried to stop it from being that horrible, yet ended up fulfilling his own vision. Nice and tragic.

One thing I will give props on that story is its reference to continuity. The Doc Doom/Iron Man in King Arthur's time story actually took place (Iron Man #152 or thereabouts, I believe).

Many of you are saying Iron man would never do the things he has. Then why is it in several possibly futures he is the world conqueorer? In some stories, his armored stooges go galactic.

I can see Iron Man cooperating and working with the SHRA actually- he did go buckwild during the Armor Wars. I do wish he'd been given some consistent motives, though. He's had about 4 or 5, varying with the whims of the writers.

On the other hand, I am not entirely sure that Cap would have been in support of the SHRA- in some measure anyway. From things I've read, it really sounds like the whole Cap vs. SHRA was editorially mandated just so that Marvel could have Cap vs. Iron Man, regardless of prior characterization, and I think that is pretty lame. Especially considering that Cap has, time and again, rejected young heroes due to their lack of training and experience (Justice got turned down from the Avengers for that reason, Cap recently- and reluctantly- decided to give the Young Avengers training when it was evident that they wouldn't stop heroing when he told them to.) He's always been big on responsibility and accountability.

 

[megamania]

Especially considering that Cap has, time and again, rejected young heroes due to their lack of training and experience (Justice got turned down from the Avengers for that reason, Cap recently- and reluctantly- decided to give the Young Avengers training when it was evident that they wouldn't stop heroing when he told them to.) He's always been big on responsibility and accountability.

VERY TRUE

The concept was incredible but there are two problems with it-

Many heroes were "forced" into a slot to keep it "balanced" and "even". and two...NOW WHAT?!?

This is not something you can just ignore and bring 180 degrees back to before without Scarlet Witch snapping (yaaaawn....again). There are many interesting stories to be told this way but at what cost?

They saw how well recieved Ultimate series was with the government taking a stronger stand on super beings being registered but they may have taken it too far.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Well I guess I was the only one who wanted to see Marvel's distinctly candy-coated "Civil War" become a more real sort of conflict. Based on opinions I doubt it will go that way, but I rather hoped to see EVERYONE(normal and super) turn on the government from both sides.

Actual large scale fighting between pro and anti-regulation forces and an actual revolution. Preferably one where Iron Man was ripped out of his armor and beheaded, Stark Enterprises nuked along with outer D.C. Preferably Hulk returning and destroying most of the Eastern seaboard indescriminately. Xavier's hypocritical self killed, and at least one panel of a burning Washington framing politicians impaled on the wrought iron fence of the White House.

 

[Klaus]

One thing I will give props on that story is its reference to continuity. The Doc Doom/Iron Man in King Arthur's time story actually took place (Iron Man #152 or thereabouts, I believe).



I can see Iron Man cooperating and working with the SHRA actually- he did go buckwild during the Armor Wars. I do wish he'd been given some consistent motives, though. He's had about 4 or 5, varying with the whims of the writers.

On the other hand, I am not entirely sure that Cap would have been in support of the SHRA- in some measure anyway. From things I've read, it really sounds like the whole Cap vs. SHRA was editorially mandated just so that Marvel could have Cap vs. Iron Man, regardless of prior characterization, and I think that is pretty lame. Especially considering that Cap has, time and again, rejected young heroes due to their lack of training and experience (Justice got turned down from the Avengers for that reason, Cap recently- and reluctantly- decided to give the Young Avengers training when it was evident that they wouldn't stop heroing when he told them to.) He's always been big on responsibility and accountability.

Precisely.

Captain America, IMHO, would be 100% in favor of an official, trained and funded superhuman army corps. I mean, he signed in for one in the 40s (but turned out to be the only recruit available).

The ones against it would be those who must keep secret identities from myriad foes (Daredevil, Spiderman, etc) or those who hate being bossed over (Thor, Hercules, Hulk).

 

[Cthulhudrew]

I think that Cap would have been opposed to certain aspects of the SHRA- the draft/conscription parts, certainly (except in cases of war), and I think- like Tony is portrayed as in the end of Civil War- Cap would have been very leery about who he would be willing to have access to superhuman identities. But overall, I think he would have been in favor of the legislation that brought some more accountability to superhumans, and provided them with effective training. Not to keep harping on the point, but to me that is one of the biggest failures of the whole Civil War storyline.

[EDIT- to go on a slight tangent, I think it would have been really cool- had they still been in the 616-verse- to have the Squadron Supreme be involved in things. Hyperion and crew would have raised such an anti-registration movement it wouldn't even have been funny. Not to mention that it would at least have given the Sentry someone to fight, instead of having him do his usual wishy-washiness. Would make for a good What if? story, I think.]

 

[Felon]

Actual large scale fighting between pro and anti-regulation forces and an actual revolution. Preferably one where Iron Man was ripped out of his armor and beheaded, Stark Enterprises nuked along with outer D.C. Preferably Hulk returning and destroying most of the Eastern seaboard indescriminately. Xavier's hypocritical self killed, and at least one panel of a burning Washington framing politicians impaled on the wrought iron fence of the White House.

OK, you have issues....just wanted to make you aware of that.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

It's not so much "issues" as you put as a desire that the nature of civil strife not be sugar-coated like they're doing with this "Civil War" plotline. I've seen just how nasty Civil Wars and revolutions really get, and I'd prefer that people not be given cutesy ideas that they're anything but a horrible bloody mess. Especially if you throw super-human individuals in to the conflict.

 

[Felon]

OK, people are a mess. Most of them are trying to dominate and kill each other, and those civilized folk who are removed from the conflict just want to stick their heads in the sand somewhere out in the burbs with their trophy spouse and 2.5 kids...and play D&D to escape from how boring all of that is.

Now, granting all that, am I better or worse off for not actually wanting to see people beheaded or impaled, be it in a comic or reality?

 

[jonesy]

Now, granting all that, am I better or worse off for not actually wanting to see people beheaded or impaled, be it in a comic or reality?

Not wanting to see it makes you sane. But wanting to see it doesn't automatically make you insane. That depends entirely on how firm your grasp on the concepts and differences of reality and fantasy really are. I mean, I actually enjoy the Re-Animator films for their gore. But if I saw something like that in Real Life I'd puke my brains out (figuratively, one hopes).