Thief seems overpowered to this new/old DM

[Dedekind]

Great thread idea.

To get back on topic, don't forget to give credit to the party for enabling the thief's abilities. The defender's mark increases the thief's mobility and defenders often provide flank. The controller also increases mobility and keeps the bad guys from ganging up on the thief. And, of course, the leader can generate more attacks, too (I <3 Wolf Pack Tactics).

I've always maintained that 50% of a striker's damage should be credited to the rest of the party.*

Also, any character with two attacks will do some damage more frequently. My ranger does some damage 3 rounds in every 4.


* 50% is a made up number. You get my point.

 

[MrMyth]

Ah, but you cannot have it both ways. You cannot ignore DPR with one breath ("clarify that the numbers I was going by weren't accounting for whether attacks hit or missed ") and then say "but Rangers get Encounter powers" with the next.

Just to make this clear one more time - I wasn't ignoring DPR. I was using the base damage of the At-Wills because that seemed to be the numbers you were referring to. Hence why I acknowledged accuracy seperately.

So yes, when one considers the Encounter powers, Rangers do boost up their overall Encounter DPR more than when Thieves take into account Backstab. But that extra damage still doesn't catch up to the Thief until 7th level. At 3rd level, the Thief still averages more damage per encounter.

I'm doubtful. By 3rd level, the Ranger has probably acquired a magic weapon and weapon focus (both bonuses counting double for him.) Same goes for any other boosts he may have to damage from items. And he now has two encounter powers that are significantly more potent than backstab.

Skirmishing Stance is again, ~30 points of damage (4.5*6=27).

Guardian Arrow could be a lot more damage, especially against a solo, but if it is against an elite or a standard, it actually will often result in ~30 damage (or less) since the foe will go down before the entire encounter's number of rounds has passed.

Dailies give the capability to significantly boost damage in the course of a single fight. Measuring that out as DPR over the course of a day gives a false image of the real effect - reducing a tough fight by one or two rounds can be key. I'm not saying it singlehandedly overwhelms the Thief, but being able to use powers like this that sway single combats is a solid advantage for classes with daily powers.

This is both illegal and mathematically incorrect.

First off, last I looked, a gouge is not a double weapon. It cannot be used with Twin Strike.

Yeah, you are entirely correct here, not sure what I was thinking.

So let's go with a Waraxe and figure out the proper numbers. I suspect you are ignoring the benefit of the ranger getting two attacks (and thus more chances to hit, more chances to use quarry, etc).

Dwarven Ranger: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 13, Wis 12. Dwarven Hammer Training. Waraxe. Let's assume that, as a melee character, he'll get CA often but not always, and treat this as ~+1 to hit. Let's assume an enemy AC of 16.

Twin Strike DPR: 14.915
[sblock]Twin Strike: +8 vs AC x 2: 1d12+2. +1d6 Quarry.

1/400 chance of both attacks critting: 34 damage.
24/400 chance of one attack critting and one hitting: 28.5 damage.
14/400 chance of one attack critting and one missing: 20 damage.
144/400 chance of both attacks hitting: 20.5 damage.
168/400 chance of one attack hitting and one missing: 12 damage.
49/400 chance of both attacks miss: 0 damage.

Two-Fanged Strike: Adds 5 damage per hit, plus 1 if both hit. DPR: 21.8375.

5 Round combat: 81.4975 damage.
Thief, 5 round combat: 86.75 damage.[/sblock]
So, with combat advantage half the time, the melee ranger is a bit behind the thief - though 5 damage over the course of an entire combat isn't much. At the cost, admittedly, of having lower defenses. Over the next few levels, as the dwarf gets more bonuses to damage, he starts to come out ahead.

[sblock]
Level 4 Dwarven Ranger: Dwarven Weapon Training, Axe Expertise, Weapon Focus, +1 Waraxes. Str 21, Dex 14, Wis 12.

Twin Strike DPR: 19.67875
Twin Strike vs AC 19: +12 vs AC x 2: 1d12(B1)+4. +1d6 Quarry.

1/400 chance of both attacks critting: 45 damage.
26/400 chance of one attack critting and one hitting: 36.5 damage.
12/400 chance of one attack critting and one missing: 25.5 damage.
169/400 chance of both attacks hitting: 25.5 damage.
156/400 chance of one attack hitting and one missing: 14.5 damage.
36/400 chance of both attacks miss: 0 damage.

Two-Fanged Strike: Adds 5 damage per hit, plus 1 if both hit. DPR: 27.16875.
Avenging Charge: Add 17.575 damage once per combat.

5 Round combat: 126.4575 damage.

Level 4 Rogue, Dex 21, Light Blade Expertise, Weapon Focus, Backstabber, +1 Short Sword.
Basic Attack: +15 vs AC: 1d6+10+2d8 = 19.6 DPR
Backstab DPR: +18 vs AC: 2d6+10+2d8 = 25.4 DPR
5 Round combat: 109.6 damage.
[/sblock]
By level 4, the dwarven ranger (whose AC is now only 2 below the thief) does nearly 27 more damage each encounter - not counting daily powers. Twin Strike is now ahead of the thief on its own, and encounters provide a bigger buff than Backstab. The advantage presented from doubling damage bonuses and the versatility of encounter powers outweighs the simple static bonuses of the thief.

Now, this is with a very optimized character. The thief has the very key advantage of doing excellent damage without much need to invest in the ideal build. But that doesn't change the fact that other characters can present the same damage output - or higher - as the thief.

The thief has the brief advantage at level 1, mainly due to having one key damage boosting feat (backstabber) plus some early and effective class features. But it certainly doesn't take until late heroic or paragon for others to catch up.

Let's also check in with the scout, since you dismissed that as well.

Level 4 Scout
[sblock]Dex 20, Aspect of the Charging Ram/Lurking Spider, Spinning Axe Mastery, Axe Expertise, Double Axe Proficiency, Weapon Focus (Axe), +1 Double Axe. Let's assume he gets +1 to hit/+2 damage on the charge, and has CA for the follow-up attack. Assuming AC 19 for the enemy.

Charge Attack: +12 vs AC 19: 1d10(B1)+11.
On a hit, Dual Weapon Attack: +13 vs AC 19: 1d10(B1)+9.

1/20 chance of the first attack critting: 24.5 damage.
13/20 chance of the first attack hitting: 17 damage.
6/20 chance of the first attack missing: 0 damage.

If the first attack hit (14/20 chance), 1/20 chance of second attack critting: 22.5 damage.
If the first attack hit, 13/20 chance of second attack hitting: 15 damage.
If the first attack hit, 6/20 chance of second attack missing: 0 damage.

Average DPR: 19.8875
Twice per combat: Power Strike adds 5.5 damage.
5 round combat: 110.4375 damage.[/sblock]
Scout comes out on par with the thief by level 4. He doesn't always get his second attack, but gets it often enough that the damage bonuses definitely add up.

Your standard Rogue is also moving ahead of the thief by this point, due to encounter powers. The Slayer does come in behind the Thief, but has added durability. Same for the Barbarian - though multitarget powers and rages can push him higher. And for the Sorcerer, though his DPR is below the rogue if attacking one target, it only takes two targets to come out ahead, and that's not even acknowledging encounter and daily powers.

Like I said, I think the Thief is definitely a top-tier striker, and probably the easiest one to come optimized right out of the box. And, at level 1, does come out ahead of most strikers - though many builds are certainly in the same league. Claiming he kills an extra monster per combat than all other strikers just isn't accurate.

And, just a few levels down the road, others begin to catch up. He remains competitive, especially at Paragon levels, but lacking daily powers and the versatility of chosen encounter powers... well, it definitely has an impact.

You claimed he is always ahead of other strikers, and especially so at 1st level. The truth is that he is ahead of other strikers at 1st level, and is even with them - or behind them - at later levels. Either way, he is never so far ahead as to be in another league entirely - the class has its own strengths and weaknesses, and while undeniably effective and easy to play, it certainly doesn't outclass everyone else on the level you have been suggesting.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

And, of course, the leader can generate more attacks, too (I <3 Wolf Pack Tactics).

How does Wolf Pack Tactics generate attacks?

 

[mneme]

Still, that's one specific type of Ranger with one specific race who needs 2 magical weapons throughout his career (3 if he wants a ranged attack) that almost catches up to an "any Dex race" Thief damage-wise at first level.

Or you could multiclass into Assassin or Monk and go back to only needing to maintain a single magical weapon (plus, if you're reading the rules strictly, +1 versions of anything you plan to throw).

I think, if you're playing well, Rogue > Thief. Rogues also usually have combat advantage (90% as opposed to 95%+ for a thief), have great spike damage, can do area damage, have builds that can inflict massive ongoing damage (I've seen a paragon rogue who can, several encounters per day, drop a 50 damage ongoing effect on a monster with a -6 to saves), status effects (or even status burst--blinding barage, anyone?)

Of course, one can make the same argument of rogues vs PH rangers. PH Rangers can do a lot more consistent damage once you go up a few levels (though somewhat less so now that sneak attack can be used more than once a round if you abuse out of turn attacks). But while PH rangers do have some decent status effects, PH rogues are very much strikers with a minor in controller.

 

[Dedekind]

How does Wolf Pack Tactics generate attacks?

It doesn't . Tactically, however, it increases mobility, and hopefully leads to more damage by somebody.

 

[Dedekind]

How does Wolf Pack Tactics generate attacks?

Oops. It doesn't, I was originally thinking about Deadly Returns.

Towards my central thesis, however, the point stands that the leader can increase opportunities for damage, not necessarily damage itself.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Oops. It doesn't, I was originally thinking about Deadly Returns.

Towards my central thesis, however, the point stands that the leader can increase opportunities for damage, not necessarily damage itself.

That's absolutely true. Aside from the at-wills Commander's Strike and Direct the Strike, the Warlord has Vengeance Is Mine and several other outstanding Encounter powers that grant attacks.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

lots of crunchy math

Don't know how much this affects your calculations, but in the Dwarf Ranger example, you list both DWT and Weapon Focus - the bonuses don't stack though. You could get it back again though by subbing TWF, so I guess the numbers will still be right.

 

[WizarDru]

To get back on topic, don't forget to give credit to the party for enabling the thief's abilities. The defender's mark increases the thief's mobility and defenders often provide flank. The controller also increases mobility and keeps the bad guys from ganging up on the thief. And, of course, the leader can generate more attacks, too (I <3 Wolf Pack Tactics).

I've always maintained that 50% of a striker's damage should be credited to the rest of the party.

This is an excellent point. The thief and rogue, more than many other classes, directly benefit from the actions of other party members. Defenders and Leaders, for example, enable other classes. Strikers (and back-stabbers in particular) benefit greatly from the essence of combined teamwork. The rogue does a lot of damage, but in practice he doesn't do it as often due to being cautious (some would argue TOO cautious, but I digress).

In practice in our group, the thief benefits greatly from being granted combat advantage by the shaman, defense by the defender (who moves him out of danger in emergencies or absorbs damage meant for him) as well as flanking (again, CA). The illusionist incapacitates many of the monsters, leaving them vulnerable. And so on and so forth.

Make sure to highlight and emphasize that the thief doesn't stand alone...and that as often as not, without the help of his fellow party members, he couldn't function nearly as well. Instead of saying, "the thief's blow kills the orc captain", you can contextualize it as "while the fighter holds the orc captain's attention, the thief strikes from his blind-spot, slaying him instantly." When addressing the player, you can mention "oh, that's right, you're getting the flank because of the barbarian...good shot."

It's important to not overdo it, though. You're not trying to steal the thief's accomplishments (unless he's being a self-centered jerk, anyways), but to reinforce to everyone that no man is an island and no thief is a party.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm doubtful. By 3rd level, the Ranger has probably acquired a magic weapon and weapon focus (both bonuses counting double for him.) Same goes for any other boosts he may have to damage from items. And he now has two encounter powers that are significantly more potent than backstab.

Let's find out.

Dailies give the capability to significantly boost damage in the course of a single fight. Measuring that out as DPR over the course of a day gives a false image of the real effect - reducing a tough fight by one or two rounds can be key. I'm not saying it singlehandedly overwhelms the Thief, but being able to use powers like this that sway single combats is a solid advantage for classes with daily powers.

I've found that Daily powers that give some benefit for the rest of the encounter are a lot more worthwhile than ones that just hit for a lot of damage, possibly miss for half damage, and have some minor rider to them.

The ones that don't benefit for an entire round (most of the low level Ranger ones) tend to just be extra damage for the most part.

Yeah, you are entirely correct here, not sure what I was thinking.

No worries. I foobar all of the time. I'll probably have a foobar in this post.

So let's go with a Waraxe and figure out the proper numbers. I suspect you are ignoring the benefit of the ranger getting two attacks (and thus more chances to hit, more chances to use quarry, etc).

Nope. I am taking that into account. But, let's look at the numbers.

Dwarven Ranger: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 13, Wis 12. Dwarven Hammer Training. Waraxe. Let's assume that, as a melee character, he'll get CA often but not always, and treat this as ~+1 to hit. Let's assume an enemy AC of 16.

Twin Strike DPR: 14.915
[sblock]Twin Strike: +8 vs AC x 2: 1d12+2. +1d6 Quarry.

1/400 chance of both attacks critting: 34 damage.
24/400 chance of one attack critting and one hitting: 28.5 damage.
14/400 chance of one attack critting and one missing: 20 damage.
144/400 chance of both attacks hitting: 20.5 damage.
168/400 chance of one attack hitting and one missing: 12 damage.
49/400 chance of both attacks miss: 0 damage.

Two-Fanged Strike: Adds 5 damage per hit, plus 1 if both hit. DPR: 21.8375.

5 Round combat: 81.4975 damage.
Thief, 5 round combat: 86.75 damage.[/sblock]
So, with combat advantage half the time, the melee ranger is a bit behind the thief - though 5 damage over the course of an entire combat isn't much. At the cost, admittedly, of having lower defenses. Over the next few levels, as the dwarf gets more bonuses to damage, he starts to come out ahead.

[sblock]
Level 4 Dwarven Ranger: Dwarven Weapon Training, Axe Expertise, Weapon Focus, +1 Waraxes. Str 21, Dex 14, Wis 12.

Twin Strike DPR: 19.67875
Twin Strike vs AC 19: +12 vs AC x 2: 1d12(B1)+4. +1d6 Quarry.

1/400 chance of both attacks critting: 45 damage.
26/400 chance of one attack critting and one hitting: 36.5 damage.
12/400 chance of one attack critting and one missing: 25.5 damage.
169/400 chance of both attacks hitting: 25.5 damage.
156/400 chance of one attack hitting and one missing: 14.5 damage.
36/400 chance of both attacks miss: 0 damage.

Two-Fanged Strike: Adds 5 damage per hit, plus 1 if both hit. DPR: 27.16875.
Avenging Charge: Add 17.575 damage once per combat.

5 Round combat: 126.4575 damage.

Level 4 Rogue, Dex 21, Light Blade Expertise, Weapon Focus, Backstabber, +1 Short Sword.
Basic Attack: +15 vs AC: 1d6+10+2d8 = 19.6 DPR
Backstab DPR: +18 vs AC: 2d6+10+2d8 = 25.4 DPR
5 Round combat: 109.6 damage.
[/sblock]

By level 4, the dwarven ranger (whose AC is now only 2 below the thief) does nearly 27 more damage each encounter - not counting daily powers. Twin Strike is now ahead of the thief on its own, and encounters provide a bigger buff than Backstab. The advantage presented from doubling damage bonuses and the versatility of encounter powers outweighs the simple static bonuses of the thief.

Now, this is with a very optimized character. The thief has the very key advantage of doing excellent damage without much need to invest in the ideal build. But that doesn't change the fact that other characters can present the same damage output - or higher - as the thief.

Instead of considering CA as something he gets half of the time, let's just do the calculations with and without CA. That way, the numbers are accurate.

First off, you gave the Dwarf two +1 waraxes at 4th level. If following the DMG, a DM should typically hand out 4 items for 5 PCs at levels 1 through 3, so it is unlikely that the Dwarf would have 2 of them when he 2.4 magic items, even at the end of level 4 when he has 3.1. Let's give him one +1 magic weapon since that's what we will be giving the Thief as well. As the Ranger levels up, we can assume that when he gets a +2 weapon, that one goes in his main hand and the +1 weapon goes into his off hand, etc. Otherwise, you are skewing the results in his favor due to an extra magic weapon.

Also, Weapon Focus and Dwarven Weapon Training are both feat bonuses to damage, so they do not stack. Let's add Two Weapon Fighting which was errated to do +1 damage to both weapons.

So, the main hand is +1 magic, +2 level, +2 weapon proficiency, +5 Str , +1 Axe Expertise or +11 to hit AC 19 is an 8 needed on the roll. Damage is D12 (+0.5 brutal) + 2 Dwarven Weapon Training + 1 magic +1 Two Weapon Fighting = 11 damage. We'll assume 3.5 magical weapon damage on a critical.

The off hand weapon is not magical, so +10 to hit and 9.5 damage.

DPR = .6 (no crit) * 11 + 0.05 (crit) * 19.5 + .55 (no crit) * 10 + 0.05 (crit) * 15 + (1 - .35*.4 - 0.0975) * 3.5 (no crit quarry) + 0.0975 * 6 (crit quarry) = 17.07875

CA DPR = .7 (no crit) * 11 + 0.05 (crit) * 19.5 + .65 (no crit) * 10 + 0.05 (crit) * 15 + (1 - .25*.3 - 0.0975) * 3.5 (no crit quarry) + 0.0975 * 6 (crit quarry) = 19.40625

This is a bit less than your calculation. But, you gave him a second magical weapon that the Thief did not get, and you gave him +1 for CA half of the rounds which skews the calculation.

So, not taking into account encounter powers, the Ranger does 4 rounds of 17.07875 to 19.40625 points of damage. You don't get quarry damage for Avenging Charge, so 2D12+1+9, DPR = .65 (no crit) * 22 + 0.05 (crit) * 36.5 = 16.775. Two Fanged ranges from 23.32875 to 27.58125 with CA.

No CA: 104.4963 DPE
CA: 117.7288 DPE

Even using your Thief DPR (which I won't), you need to have CA some of the time to stay even.

Let's improve upon the Thief (since the Dwarven Ranger was optimized).

First off, consider that I have not given the Thief a race. I could give him Revenant or Bugbear to do extra damage once per round. I could make him an Elf and turn a miss into a hit most times it happens. Or Gnoll and +2 damage when bloodied. Or two rounds of CA with a Changeling. Or a variety of others that result in more DPE. And this does not take into account racial feats like the Dwarf took (which btw, Dwarven Weapon Training is one of the strongest racial feats in the game).

So, I can easily throw more DPE in the pot due to race which easily counters a Daily power in DPE per day.

Going back to a vanilla Thief, let's throw out the Light Blade Expertise and use Spiked Chain Training instead.

So, his weapon is +1 magic, +2 level, +3 weapon proficiency, +5 Dex, +2 CA +1 Thief Weapon Talent or +14 to hit AC 19 is a 5 needed on the roll. Damage is 2D4 + 2 Weapon Finesse + 1 magic +2D8 Backstabbing Sneak Attack +5 Dex +1 Weapon Focus = 23 damage. We'll assume 3.5 magical weapon damage on a critical.

Level 4 Thief, Dex 21, Spiked Chain Training, Weapon Focus, Backstabber, +1 Spiked Chain.

DPR = .75 (no crit) * 23 + 0.05 (crit) * 36.5 = 19.075

Backstab DPR = .9 (no crit) * 26.5 + 0.05 (crit) * 42.5 = 25.975

5 Round combat, 2 of them Backstab rounds: 109.175 damage.

Note: Your Thief damage was off as well. Yours actually resulted in 110.4 DPE, but I wanted the cool reach and to illustrate that Light Weapon Expertise can be acquired at level 6 for +1 to hit and damage. The Ranger would be hard put to gain that at level 6 with a feat.

And of course, the Thief can charge for an additional +1 to hit with his attacks (and be 10 feet away). The Ranger cannot without dropping DPR.

The extra damage from Spiked Chain is minimal, but it also gives him Reach. It's also better damage (14) for OAs, actually higher than the 11 of the Ranger. Any party member that hands out free attacks will give it to the Thief, not the Ranger (and if the Thief can get CA, woo hoo).

And any +2 Dex race can do this.

The Thief has better AC and better Reflex. The Ranger, better Fort.

So, the Thief can still be a slight bit ahead at level 4.


Granted, the Ranger will get a +2 for +1 boost on Twin Strike damage anytime he can boost weapon damage. There are a few items for that, but not too many feats (at least at heroic). But, the Thief gets +5 more damage that the Ranger does not get by level 30 because his ability score bonus adds to his At Will damage. For example, +1 more at level 8.

And there are a ton of feats and items that help Charges which the Thief can do for more damage than the Ranger. For example, Surprising Charge is +5 damage for the Spiked Chain Thief. And once the Ranger is getting CA most of the time, the Thief will be getting it even when it is not his turn.

All in all, the Thief has a lot of staying power here. The Ranger is really limited if he wants to match DPE.

PS. A Wizard can beat either of these for DPE if designed for multi-target damage.