D&D 4E Things from 4E Not Done Well
Mr. Patient
Adventurer
Most of my list has already been covered by others, but I want to stress the blandness of many powers (both monsters' and PCs'). I also think 4e went way overboard in reducing the swinginess of combat. Hit point attrition can be very, very dull, especially when monsters have so many bloody hit points.
This isn't a problem with the rules per se, but is one of my greatest annoyances with 4e: there is no satisfactory entry point for the game in print. The core three books are by now almost useless, especially the MM1 and the DMG, where virtually every crunchy rules element has been errataed. The Essentials books could have filled this role, but on their own don't really provide a complete game. It's an edition without a functioning core.
This isn't a problem with the rules per se, but is one of my greatest annoyances with 4e: there is no satisfactory entry point for the game in print. The core three books are by now almost useless, especially the MM1 and the DMG, where virtually every crunchy rules element has been errataed. The Essentials books could have filled this role, but on their own don't really provide a complete game. It's an edition without a functioning core.
delericho
Legend
- Pretty much everything around the game itself. The Starter Sets sucked, the adventures sucked, the marketing sucked, the DDI tools sucked for a long time, the eMagazines... Basically, it's a testament to how good 4e itself actually was that they didn't manage to kill it stone dead - it certainly seemed like they were trying!
- The game made too big an assumption that everything would advance in lock-step. In effect, this too often meant that the game boiled down to "roll a 10".
- Combat was waaay too involved. Too much micro-management of conditions, recharges, and the like. Too many interrupts.
- The marketing sucked. I know I've said that, but it's worth saying twice.
- The rules for jumping are idiotic. Seriously.
- Option bloat.
- The Character Builder pretty quickly became a 'must-have' for me - had I not had access, I would have refused to play. I find that unacceptable.
- Likewise, the game could be run without minis, but it just lost way too much in the process. I find that unacceptable, too.
- While the monster stat-blocks were actually an strong improvement, the "everything is an exception" thing went too far. Using standard spell-like abilities, as in 3e, is actually a good thing - the issue was that the stat blocks referred to them by name rather than reprinting the necessary rules. 4e reprinted the rules... but made everything unique. It is possible to have both.
- No clear statement of what the tiers actually meant.
- No support for the Epic tier.
- Magic items became utterly mundane. This started in 3e, but became intolerable here.
- Healing surges. At the very least, these should have been called something else. "Healing Reserve" perhaps?
- The game made too big an assumption that everything would advance in lock-step. In effect, this too often meant that the game boiled down to "roll a 10".
- Combat was waaay too involved. Too much micro-management of conditions, recharges, and the like. Too many interrupts.
- The marketing sucked. I know I've said that, but it's worth saying twice.
- The rules for jumping are idiotic. Seriously.
- Option bloat.
- The Character Builder pretty quickly became a 'must-have' for me - had I not had access, I would have refused to play. I find that unacceptable.
- Likewise, the game could be run without minis, but it just lost way too much in the process. I find that unacceptable, too.
- While the monster stat-blocks were actually an strong improvement, the "everything is an exception" thing went too far. Using standard spell-like abilities, as in 3e, is actually a good thing - the issue was that the stat blocks referred to them by name rather than reprinting the necessary rules. 4e reprinted the rules... but made everything unique. It is possible to have both.
- No clear statement of what the tiers actually meant.
- No support for the Epic tier.
- Magic items became utterly mundane. This started in 3e, but became intolerable here.
- Healing surges. At the very least, these should have been called something else. "Healing Reserve" perhaps?
Kobold Avenger
Legend
What I didn't like was...
- Screwing up the 9 alignments, to me it's not D&D if there isn't the Chaotic Neutral alignment.
- Standardizing and codifying abilities way too much, and making many spells last way too short. You can't do many creative things with powers in 4e, spells like Minor Image don't exist because they're too versatile. For example could you couldn't come up with the tactic to quickly ambush a bunch of giants from 1000 feet away with the help of invisibility and the dimension door spell with the entire party that you could do in 3e/pathfinder.
- Messing around with the rich history of the game's story and monsters by making it more palatable to completely new players. You know there's things called wikis out there that can help.
- Assuming that every class should get a completely different set of abilities, even if a bunch of them all do the same thing.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Based on what I saw:
- The foreshortening of the alignment system; needs to go back to G/E - C/L - N
- Superpowered 1st level characters
- Miniatures integration. VERY poorly done.
- Introduction of "new" races (blink elves, demon people, dragon people). Should've stuck with core on top, those down the line.
- Disassociated mechanics.
- Retconning campaign worlds; blink elves and demon people could have been smoothly fit into, say GREYHAWK with a DDI (or softcover!) update gazetteer that said "Oh the blink elves came from the distant west, demon people dwelt under the Sea of Dust, and have now arisen to take their rightful place as heir to the mighty Suel Empire"...but no. They didn't do that, so integrating the new races and retconning campaigns was done VERY poorly.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
Of all these threads, this is were I probably disagree most with other posters...
Anyways...In 4E:
*Combats take to long and can be too predictable;
*Too many repetitive player options and general bloatiness (though this is not unique to 4E);
*A lack of style, sizzle, and swagger (though this is not unique to 4E);
*The mirror of the above, but things being bland that shouldn't be (though this is not unique to 4E);
*A default world that shouldn't be (though this is not unique to 4E);
*Rituals and skill challenges have to be "made to work" by the DM;
*Not nearly enough good adventures.
Anyways...In 4E:
*Combats take to long and can be too predictable;
*Too many repetitive player options and general bloatiness (though this is not unique to 4E);
*A lack of style, sizzle, and swagger (though this is not unique to 4E);
*The mirror of the above, but things being bland that shouldn't be (though this is not unique to 4E);
*A default world that shouldn't be (though this is not unique to 4E);
*Rituals and skill challenges have to be "made to work" by the DM;
*Not nearly enough good adventures.
Here is my big one
*In previous editions when I played a wizard and my brother played a paladin, he had no idea how my class worked and I had no idea how his class worked. This made me feel different, it helped me roleplay differently. This was true for most classes in previous editions, they were mechanically different from eachother in at least some ways. Making all classes work the same made them feel VERY similar and helped make the adventures very boring to me.
*furthermore the powers were simplified and generic. You do 1d6 and its red flash, I do 1d6 and its a weapon. Powers acting and damaging the same make combat feel generic. My players arent actors, they need cues to roleplay, and this needs to start in the books. Now we get very generic powers with a tiny sentence for flavour, and guess what, all my players act exactly the same.
*the adventures sucked, one big grind fest, not sure if it was the system or the adventures, probably a combination of both.
*In previous editions when I played a wizard and my brother played a paladin, he had no idea how my class worked and I had no idea how his class worked. This made me feel different, it helped me roleplay differently. This was true for most classes in previous editions, they were mechanically different from eachother in at least some ways. Making all classes work the same made them feel VERY similar and helped make the adventures very boring to me.
*furthermore the powers were simplified and generic. You do 1d6 and its red flash, I do 1d6 and its a weapon. Powers acting and damaging the same make combat feel generic. My players arent actors, they need cues to roleplay, and this needs to start in the books. Now we get very generic powers with a tiny sentence for flavour, and guess what, all my players act exactly the same.
*the adventures sucked, one big grind fest, not sure if it was the system or the adventures, probably a combination of both.
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johnsemlak
First Post
Alignment--I can understand the desire to reform AL but the 4e fix was terrible. Why bother having LG if you're not going to have the other 8?
Core races. The new races were fine as non-core alternatives, and I like the dragonborn, but were the ELadrin really worth giving up the Gnome?
Core races. The new races were fine as non-core alternatives, and I like the dragonborn, but were the ELadrin really worth giving up the Gnome?
Storminator
First Post
I have a pretty small list, and they all tend to skew in the same direction. In the versions of the game centered around 1e all the advancement curves flattened out at the top. In 3e and 4e all the advancement curves get progressively steeper. That's inherently flawed.
Too many similar bonuses that stack
Too many fiddly conditions to track
Too many ways power increases with level (stats increase, base bonuses increase, magic item bonuses increase, bonuses from powers increase)
Hit points and damage both scale towards infinity
The wealth scaling that works for magic items makes no sense for anything else
PS
Too many similar bonuses that stack
Too many fiddly conditions to track
Too many ways power increases with level (stats increase, base bonuses increase, magic item bonuses increase, bonuses from powers increase)
Hit points and damage both scale towards infinity
The wealth scaling that works for magic items makes no sense for anything else
PS
I think the concept behind "Come and Get It" was good. I just don't like the implementation (even after the fix).
I would preferred,
Attack: Cha vs Will Roll once and apply vs. each target's Will Defense (another possibily is bluff vs insight instead of CHA/Will or allowing subsittution for CHA or Will Defense).
Effect: Pull the target 2 square as in CAGI power description. Anyone lured adjacent triggers an attack (Str vs AC) for 1[W] rather than, automatically, just taking the damage . Roll the damage once and apply it to any successful attack that follow (as with area effects and close bursts)
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