D&D 5E (2024) This Feels Like 4E

[Distracted DM]

Ya know, those of you that want complex tactical decisions for martials ... it's out there already. Is it a branding thing that keeps you stuck to WotC's 5e if you're so dissatisfied with how martials are treated?

My top example is Level Up A5E, their combat maneuvers are basically 3.5e's Tome of Battle but core to 5e... and I know that there are others out there that've tackled and implemented it, IMO, better than WotC has.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Just basic things like setting your combats in interesting terrain instead of flat dungeon rooms

Do that and suddenly the Push weapon mastery becomes much more appealing. And you can use that as many times as you have attacks, no incentive to juggle.

The trouble with white room theory crafting is the empty white rooms.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Wrong inspiration, action movie isn't the way to do it. Video games are a much more closer imagery in people's head when they think of this 'golf bag' strategy.

oooh yes! martial fighter go brrrrrrr

 

[tetrasodium]

I didn't imply that it did. I was trying to steer the thread away from arguments about weird rules cheese and more towards what DMs can do to encourage tactical thinking, if they want a more 4E-like feel.


And again... I'm not saying 'try and emulate a live play and run the game like it's a show', I'm saying use them for inspiration. Just basic things like setting your combats in interesting terrain instead of flat dungeon rooms (the invisible stalker attack on the staircase in C2), or having boss actions radically change how things are positioned like in the Vecna battle at the end of C1. Making tactics matter doesn't require you to play like you're putting on a show.


Because it's irrelevant and you seem to be arguing against a point I never made. I get that you're having multiple conversations in this thread but I'm not ECMO3.

What the gm can do in the context of players juggling weapons at no action economy cost with no meaningful hit to inventory because the rules guarantee it until the gm comes off as adversarial by nerfing something still depends on the players though.

 

[Charlaquin]

Weapon swapping during combat is absolutely ridiculous in terms of actual, practical, real-life martial arts technique. But it’s very much in line with the kind of choreography you might see in action movies, anime, or video games. I imagine it would seem out of place in an RPG that was extremely grounded and sought to accurately represent historical combat techniques, but to me feels entirely appropriate for D&D’s more fantastical, heroic action vibes.

 

[Reef]

What the gm can do in the context of players juggling weapons at no action economy cost with no meaningful hit to inventory because the rules guarantee it until the gm comes off as adversarial by nerfing something still depends on the players though.

I’m going to have to respectfully disagree here. The DM is not being adversarial by saying “Stop abusing the rules”. Or, if you are willing to die on the hill that weapon juggling was 100% RAI, there is nothing wrong with the DM saying “Hey party people, this rule (while 100% legitimate) is sucking the soul out of our game. How about we don’t use it?”

 

[Reef]

Weapon swapping during combat is absolutely ridiculous in terms of actual, practical, real-life martial arts technique. But it’s very much in line with the kind of choreography you might see in action movies, anime, or video games. I imagine it would seem out of place in an RPG that was extremely grounded and sought to accurately represent historical combat techniques, but to me feels entirely appropriate for D&D’s more fantastical, heroic action vibes.

Movies do have crazy fight choreography, and I wouldn’t be adverse to having incredible feats show up occasionally. But it’s the constant, robotic routine of weapon juggling that destroys it.

It’s not a cinematic, climatic moment of the hero slashing with his great sword, dropping it, dramatically tossing a dagger, and then finishing the fight with a short sword slash.

Instead, it’s attack with great sword, sheathe great sword, draw dagger, attack with dagger, sheathe dagger, draw sword and attack. Again, and again, every round, in that exact same order. That’s not cinematic.

 

[tetrasodium]

I’m going to have to respectfully disagree here. The DM is not being adversarial by saying “Stop abusing the rules”. Or, if you are willing to die on the hill that weapon juggling was 100% RAI, there is nothing wrong with the DM saying “Hey party people, this rule (while 100% legitimate) is sucking the soul out of our game. How about we don’t use it?”

Wotc was very clear that weapon juggling and irrelivant carry capacity was the intended design. Can you quote any rule not being used Rules As Written --AND-- Rules As Intended by weapon juggling?

 

[Reef]

Wotc was very clear that weapon juggling and irrelivant carry capacity was the intended design. Can you quote any rule not being used Rules As Written --AND-- Rules As Intended by weapon juggling?

Were they clear that they expect you to be able to juggle multiple weapons every round to maximize masteries? Or were they just clear that they didn’t want players to stress about having a weapon available when they attack? Two different things. And I’m not being rhetorical, I’m generally curious.

But my point stands, that even if this juggling was 100% intended, you are well within your rights not to use a rule that you feel is bogging down your game. I am sure they were clear on that part!

 

[Charlaquin]

Movies do have crazy fight choreography, and I wouldn’t be adverse to having incredible feats show up occasionally. But it’s the constant, robotic routine of weapon juggling that destroys it.

It’s not a cinematic, climatic moment of the hero slashing with his great sword, dropping it, dramatically tossing a dagger, and then finishing the fight with a short sword slash.

Instead, it’s attack with great sword, sheathe great sword, draw dagger, attack with dagger, sheathe dagger, draw sword and attack. Again, and again, every round, in that exact same order. That’s not cinematic.

I disagree. Draw cuts are cool. Doing a draw cut and immediately sheathing the weapon, while in the same motion doing another draw cut with another weapon in the opposite hand is even cooler. If repetitive attack patterns bother you, I can’t imagine how you would enjoy D&D combat at all, since it’s all just “I attack with [weapon]. I attack with [weapon] again.” Whether it’s the same weapon twice or two different weapons, it’s still going to be the same attack pattern round after round.