Thoughts about Detect Evil

[ElectricDragon]

This is a strange question spurred by another thread. Detect Evil detects undead.
Detect Good,Law, and Chaos say they work like Detect Evil but instead detect auras of specifically aligned creatures, clerics of specifically aligned deities, specifically aligned spells, and specifically aligned magic items.

So only Detect Evil detects something extra? Since it is superior to the others that use its description; shouldn't it be a level higher? This change would also increase the effectiveness of Detect Undead which only detects undead auras and nothing else.

Just seems to me that Detect Evil should work like all the other detect alignment spells and not have an extra category that it can detect. This is about game balance. If you have two similar spells but one is clearly superior; shouldn't the level of that superior spell be higher? Compare both Detect Good/Chaos/Law and Detect Undead with Detect Evil. All are first level spells; but clearly DE is a better spell. It detects more than all the other four and is the same level. Now if DU was dropped to 0-level, and DL/DG/DC were given an extra thing they could detect: (just for the sake of argument, I'll give some examples: DG: Constructs; DL: Plants; DC: Vermin; these things are just as appropriate as detecting undead for a Detect Evil spell) that would fix it. Of course that would be a house rule; but balance would be served.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Piratecat]

[hijack] Hey Dave, your sig is way too big (almost double what's considered proper.) Could you please find a way to shrink it? Thanks! [/hijack]

 

[Blue Sky]

I don't think it's so much giving the spell something extra, as it is reiterating the fact that undead are evil by nature, much like evil outsiders.

After all Detect Good detects paladins, Detect Law finds monks and paladins, they just decided to note it specifically in the spell description for Detect Evil because, lets face it, most players are gonna be the good guys.

As to why they have a different line on the table, well, the way I look at it, a powerful orc is just as evil as middling undead, because the undead were brought about by Evil Magic (tm), and have no redeeming qualities, where as the orc is a jerk who likes to kill, but he's not the spawn of hell or anything like that.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I both agree and disagree with ElectricDragon.

I agree that detect evil is clearly the most useful of the "detect alignment aura" spells. I agree that it should be higher level than the other spells. (Honestly, when's the last time anyone used detect law?) However, I don't think detect evil -- including its function as an undead detector -- is powerful enough to be a second-level spell. According, I think it should remain first-level, and the other spells should be dropped to 0-level. (I also think detect undead should be dropped to 0-level.)

However, I actually don't have a problem with detect evil detecting undead. In fact, assuming it is rationalized properly, I kinda like the idea. (My problem with detect evil and undead is with the ridiculous muddled way they went about it, not with the idea in general. I highly dislike the fact that detect evil detects non-evil clerics, but that's a different discussion, and even that can be rationalized.)

The wrong way to go about it: Assigning Evil alignment to mindless undead creatures. Just plain stupid, and contrary to the alignment rules.

The right way to go about it: Simply assign undead the "(evil)" subtype. Say that animate dead (or whatever animus is behind a given undead creature) warps negative energy to the extent that it imposes a permanent lingering evil on the animated or created or spawned creature, similar to the unsheddable evil of demons and devils. (Note that I'm not saying negative energy is itself evil; thus my use of the word "warp.")

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I agree that detect evil is clearly the most useful of the "detect alignment aura" spells. I agree that it should be higher level than the other spells. (Honestly, when's the last time anyone used detect law?) However, I don't think detect evil -- including its function as an undead detector -- is powerful enough to be a second-level spell. According, I think it should remain first-level, and the other spells should be dropped to 0-level. (I also think detect undead should be dropped to 0-level.)

Detect Evil is clearly more useful to good PCs. But evil PCs would find much more use out of Detect Good, I'd imagine. As would the enemies of good PCs. As that's the case, you'd have to make the Detect spells 0th-level dependent on the alignment of the caster (a good caster gets Detect Evil at 1st-level, all the others at zero, an evil caster gets Detect Good at 1st, others at zero, a neutral caster gets them all at 1st,) or you'd be giving somebody the shaft, whether it be PCs, or their enemies.

At least, you'd have to do so with Good/Evil, which are traditionally the most important alignment axis. As you pointed out, nobody uses Detect Law or Detect Chaos, the good guys or the bad guys. Those spells could be safely dropped to 0th-level, I think, irregardless of the issue of Good/Evil.

However, I actually don't have a problem with detect evil detecting undead. In fact, assuming it is rationalized properly, I kinda like the idea.

Me too. In fact, my paladin has (accidentally) used Detect Evil to detect an invisible enemy.

 

[vulcan_idic]

In Campaigns I've been associated with the fact the Detect Evil also Detects Undead actually dilutes its strength rather than augmenting it. For example Detect Evil will let you know there's something Evil in these places, but not what sort of evil it is... which when wandering a crypt for example... it could be undead... it could be the thing that *made* the undead... it could be an evil thief out to rob the place and enrich himself - they all "ping" the same way. Due to the imprecise nature of the spell - even more so because undead are also "Evil" - it seems to me as fine at it's level... and the same level as Detect Undead... which provides, actually, slightly more specific information.

 

[Li Shenron]

I always played it that it detects only evil undead however, otherwise it goes beyond "detecting evil" and there's only little reason to ever use Detect Undead.

But since technically it says "undead" and not "evil undead" that was mostly a HR. From a design point of view, I think it's badly done.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The right way to go about it: Simply assign undead the "(evil)" subtype.

Unless they didn't want skeletons bypassing DR X/Evil for some reason.

(Note that I'm not saying negative energy is itself evil; thus my use of the word "warp.")

There's certainly precedent for it - Defenders of the Faith noted that 'Channeling negative energy is an evil act'.

-Hyp.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Unless they didn't want skeletons bypassing DR X/Evil for some reason.

True, although in the slight chance they care, they could simply note that they don't.

There's certainly precedent for it - Defenders of the Faith noted that 'Channeling negative energy is an evil act'.

Did that rule make it into Complete Divine? God, I hope not; what a stupid rule. Under that rule, it would be virtually impossible for any clerics of Wee Jas to maintain an alignment matching their deity.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

From a design point of view, I think it's badly done.

But for God's sake, don't call it "unclear"!


Jeff