D&D 5E Thoughts On How To Do High Level Adventures.

[Zardnaar]

I've only recently begun exploring high-level play, and I'm 36 and have been playing D&D for ~28 years. So I'm definitely learning here, not as experienced as many of you like [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] [MENTION=26685]shir[/MENTION]oikin [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]

What I've noticed is that if I were to pick up a module that was billed as high-level (e.g. Lich Queen's Beloved or Labyrinth of Madness), there'd be little to no advice specifically toward DMing for high-level PCs. The adventures are pretty much presented the same as they were at lower levels. I think that's a slight mistake.

What distinguishes high-level play (in 5e specifically), AFAICT, are four things:

1. Lots of campaign/game history/world-building, making each gaming group more individualized.
2. High-level spells completely circumventing certain challenges.
3. The party's force multiplier increases due to more synchronistic class features & player experience.
4. Experienced players who are hungry for new twists & surprises (mechanically and narratively).

I'm slowly penning a high-level D&D adventure for my game group (and hopefully for publication), and I've tried to use those four distinguishing elements in my design...

1. Because a high-level group is more individualized, it's important that the adventure include notes on adapting it. Not just in terms of level/# PCs/magic items & feats, but also in terms of story. Especially in terms of story. There should be multiple suggestions a DM can choose from to help integrate the adventure into his or her ongoing campaign.
2. Notes about high-level spells (or class features) that could be disruptive, and how the adventure accommodates those spells. A simple example would be a compound of mages with forbiddance cast on key rooms, thus preventing entry via teleportation magic as long as the forbiddance remains in place.
3. Due to the high-level party's force multiplier, when they have challenging combats, those combats need to bring the challenge. To this end, the adventure probably will need some new high CR monsters (as well as developing their tactics and terrain synergies) and devious combat encounter design.
4. Lastly, the high-level adventure should present some kind of unexpected narrative twist as well as some kind of fun new rules (these don't have to be a sub-system, something like an especially scary disease would work fine).

I'm continuing to take notes as I learn more about high-level play...

Throw down $10 for that PDF I linked to. Its for 2E a lot of the advice is still good.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I don't know about a published adventure, but when I do high level stuff, I use a very loose outline. I have the central villain in mind, and then I focus on his plans. Then I add contingency plans and alrernate paths in case any of his plans are thwarted. A lot of "if this, then that" elements because high level characters do not need to always approach challenges in the way expected.

I also think that varying encounter types and goals can be huge. If the PCs are too tough, make them escort a far lower level NPC through some dangerous encounters. Make them think differently. HP and damage output are not the only way to challenge the PCs.

 

[HobbitFan]

You might be able to loot some High Level play ideas from the Companion boxset for old D&D (BECMI version) and its companion modules. Lots of ideas there.

 

[Raith5]

Some good ideas here. I think one important direction is to revisit solo monsters/ legendary monsters/ lair actions and make them much tougher. I think you could really push PCs with monsters with multiple actions/reactions without having to have mass fights with 136 purple worms, etc.

Also I have to say that I dont really like the idea of reducing magic items. For me it defeats the whole purpose of adventuring and progressing.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Don't think samurai, think Samurai Jack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb9RJjizOYs

 

[Quickleaf]

Throw down $10 for that PDF I linked to. Its for 2E a lot of the advice is still good.

I do have a copy of the DM's Option High Level Campaigns. Honestly, I wasn't impressed by its tedious rules focus. And its treatment of "DM advice" is trite and un-specific to high level campaigns; for example Chapter 2's advice about "Don't Over Plan – Prepare" and "Creating Multiple Threats" and "All Failures Are Not Catastrophic" is equally valid regardless of what level the PCs are. It's stuff I've already been doing as a DM for a long time now.

What value did you find in the book, I wonder?

Some good ideas here. I think one important direction is to revisit solo monsters/ legendary monsters/ lair actions and make them much tougher. I think you could really push PCs with monsters with multiple actions/reactions without having to have mass fights with 136 purple worms, etc.

Also I have to say that I dont really like the idea of reducing magic items. For me it defeats the whole purpose of adventuring and progressing.

Totally agree with you about magic items. Players like getting loot. It's part of the power fantasy of D&D. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

I do agree that 5e's legendary monsters could use some work to make them more worthy challenges. I'm not sure what exactly it is they need yet, but my gut is telling me better defenses & ways to shake off action denial. Actually, I looked back through AD&D to find the origins of Legendary Monsters, and I found two versions:

One was in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix 2, which I write about here. The big thing for this version of legendary monsters is that they have mythical defenses (think: can't be hurt while his feet touch the ground).

The other was actually in the DM's Option High Level Campaigns book that [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] was suggesting, and frankly it's a letdown. You get advice to boost the monster's AC and HD, give it ability scores (back in AD&D they didn't necessarily have them), and then choose from an uninspired list of powers (e.g. Breath Weapon, Cause Disease, Crush, Wounding) that are very easily equated to trait/actions in the 5e MM. And that's it.

 

[L R Ballard]

The big thing for this version of legendary monsters is that they have mythical defenses (think: can't be hurt while his feet touch the ground).

That's creative, something the players may exhaust their resources trying to figure out.

It reminds me of Jason and the Argonauts when Hera reveals to Jason how to exploit Talos' legendary vulnerability in order to defeat him.

 

[pogre]

I'm slowly penning a high-level D&D adventure for my game group (and hopefully for publication), .

Poke me when it's done. I'll buy it. I will also give you an honest review after playing it.

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

I found that Higer levels I tend to move away from encounters with the simple kill al enemies goal.

And move more to stop the monsters from doing X.
Or achieve X before the monsters do Y
Often with endless enemies, enmy reinforcements coming in each round untill the players goal is reached.

 

[Quickleaf]

Poke me when it's done. I'll buy it. I will also give you an honest review after playing it.

Thanks for the encouragement Added your name to the "contact when it's finished" list!

I'm about 70 pages into Krak al-Mazhar: Citadel of the Shadow in the Flame (for 15-16th level). The premise: Mages are being lured, pressured, and deceived into joining a nefarious cult of flame mages, and it falls to the PCs to put a stop to it. It's turning into roughly 50% a site-based adventure, 20% monster supplement, 20% sourcebook on the Brotherhood of True Flame, 5% desert travel (optional), and 5% notes on how to make it your own for your campaign/party/players/DMing style. Hoping to playtest it with my face-to-face group and a PbP group, but I will be looking for others to playtest, so expect a PM from me down the road inviting you.

Working on detailed topdown maps now, so I have something to send to Derek Ruiz (www.elventower.com) who I'm commissioning for isometric maps. Fun busting out the graph paper, like I'm 10 years old again!

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