D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Sorinth]

That half of the EN world player base is right… when you read what’s in the PHB. It’s this weird case of the rule being incredibly specific (very technical) and then using the word “find” and assuming we know what that means.

While also using “find” in the previous paragraph and giving it by implication a specific meaning.

Which is ironic because I think they intentionally made the stealth rules vague and reliant DM discretion to try and avoid exactly that kind of rules lawyering. Big fail on their part.

 

[MerricB]

Which is ironic because I think they intentionally made the stealth rules vague and reliant DM discretion to try and avoid exactly that kind of rules lawyering. Big fail on their part.

Yep. Absolutely.

There's some fascinating wreckage of rules in the 2014 PHB. See, you've got this text telling you whether you can hide:

"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.

"You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet."

Now, those are the 2014 rules. But also in the 2014 PHB is this curious ability for Wood Elves:
"Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena."

That ability - which has been removed from the 2024 rules - actually works better with the 2024 rules. It makes me think that the 2014 rules were originally intended to be more like the 2024 rules, but they went with a more inexact formulation.

But, of course, the 2024 rules are - in my opinion - tremendously flawed and confusing.

(I haven't even gotten onto the way the DMG inserts itself into the issue... badly).

Cheers!

 

[Charlaquin]

One of the first house rules I added for my 2024 game was that you can lose stealth/the Invisible condition if you leave cover and enter the line of sight of a creature able to perceive you. It's "can lose" since the circumstances can dictate what happens (i.e., the target's distracted, their head is turned, bad lighting, etc.). I assume that's what was intended, but after reading the original 2024 stealth thread here at ENWorld, it seemed like half of the player base thought you could stroll right past a guard after hitting that DC 15 Stealth check.

It’s not that anyone thought you were actually supposed to be able to do that. But, what the rules actually say do imply that you can, and a lot of us were (are) unhappy about that. The rules should say what they mean.

 

[Reynard]

(i.e., the target's distracted, their head is turned, bad lighting, etc.)

This is what the die roll is for. You can't account for everything, so you roll. if the perciever fails, they were distracted or whatever. If they succeed, they were on their game.

One thing I do like about the 2024 rules is they make it explicit that the Invisible condition ends AFTER the completion of the thing that inspired it. At least we don't have to have dumb arguments about whether the rogue actually gets their sneak attack or not.

 

[abirdcall]

I've decided that the intent is to allow characters to move out of cover and not to then be automatically seen unless the creature has an ability like blindsight that allows them to 'see' in 360.

It is poorly worded but it works well when I apply my judgment to it in game. I prefer this way to 2014 as I have more freedom for adjudications and it is more congruent with the way stealth is depicted in many fantasy stories.

 

[Quickleaf]

But, of course, the 2024 rules are - in my opinion - tremendously flawed and confusing.

(I haven't even gotten onto the way the DMG inserts itself into the issue... badly).

I always appreciate your thoughts, Merric, and look forward to reading anything you care to post on the topic!

 

[James Gasik]

I think at the end of the day, each DM needs to ask themselves what they want Stealth to do in the game, and work backwards from there. Traditionally, stealth rules have either been godly or damn near useless, and there isn't much middle ground.

You either get an Elder Scrolls-esque "stealth mode" where sufficient skill can let you slip invisibly past even the most alert guards as long as you aren't blatant about what you're doing or have a ridiculously hard to attempt feat that can be broken like sugar glass.

In real life, it's possible to sneak up on people on open ground, if they are distracted or not looking in you direction. Guards rarely stay alert for long- either due to fatigue or the boredom of routine, their attention wanders. A sniper can crawl slowly, a few inches at a time without being noticed, even by people standing right next to them (just look up Carlos Hathcock's feats if you don't believe it).

However, in a fantasy world, enemies have abilities to see in darkness, feel vibrations in the air, possess keen senses of vision or smell, or even have automagical abilities to detect life forces, magical energy, and the like. Enemies in dungeons might be on high alert, and one's game of choice might not even take facing into account.

By taking these factors into consideration, attempting to use Stealth can feel like trying to hide behind a wall of tissue paper. It becomes so ludicrously impossible to attempt to hide with anything less than total cover or full obscurement- ie, in a situation where there's no way to see you in the first place!

And even then, you can still make noise, have B.O. from sweating, or any number of other things that a monster might be able to detect.

So to reiterate- the DM has to basically decide if Stealth is useful in their game at all, and what the limits are. Even if the rules precisely led you to an answer, if you don't like that answer, you're likely going to disregard that answer (insert Nick Fury clip here) anyways, so why belabor the point?

 

[Sorinth]

I think at the end of the day, each DM needs to ask themselves what they want Stealth to do in the game, and work backwards from there. Traditionally, stealth rules have either been godly or damn near useless, and there isn't much middle ground.

You either get an Elder Scrolls-esque "stealth mode" where sufficient skill can let you slip invisibly past even the most alert guards as long as you aren't blatant about what you're doing or have a ridiculously hard to attempt feat that can be broken like sugar glass.

In real life, it's possible to sneak up on people on open ground, if they are distracted or not looking in you direction. Guards rarely stay alert for long- either due to fatigue or the boredom of routine, their attention wanders. A sniper can crawl slowly, a few inches at a time without being noticed, even by people standing right next to them (just look up Carlos Hathcock's feats if you don't believe it).

However, in a fantasy world, enemies have abilities to see in darkness, feel vibrations in the air, possess keen senses of vision or smell, or even have automagical abilities to detect life forces, magical energy, and the like. Enemies in dungeons might be on high alert, and one's game of choice might not even take facing into account.

By taking these factors into consideration, attempting to use Stealth can feel like trying to hide behind a wall of tissue paper. It becomes so ludicrously impossible to attempt to hide with anything less than total cover or full obscurement- ie, in a situation where there's no way to see you in the first place!

And even then, you can still make noise, have B.O. from sweating, or any number of other things that a monster might be able to detect.

So to reiterate- the DM has to basically decide if Stealth is useful in their game at all, and what the limits are. Even if the rules precisely led you to an answer, if you don't like that answer, you're likely going to disregard that answer (insert Nick Fury clip here) anyways, so why belabor the point?

My feeling is that the default mode should be the same as any other skill check, the DM considers what is being attempted and comes up with a DC.

 

[Shiroiken]

The Stealth rules for 2014 were intentionally a big vague on purpose, because there was a huge argument during the playtest about how it should work. In theory, each DM would have leeway to run it whichever way they wanted, although with clarifications that idea slowly went away.

The Stealth rules for 2024 are just a mess, and I think it was also done on purpose. During the playtest they replaced Hidden with Invisible and never asked about it on any surveys. They had obviously made their decision and weren't listening to anyone about it. I knew it was going to be an issue, and it's actually worse than I expected. The only thing I can think is that it was written this way for AI/computer DMs.

 

[MerricB]

I honestly think that one of the sections of the DMG in Running the Game should have been about how to handle hiding and stealth.

As with many others here, I have my own set of rules for how it works. I think that - presently - the gold standard for comprehensive stealth rules goes to Pathfinder 2. I can also see why D&D doesn't want to go that route. They're hard to wade through except for Rules Nuts like me.

One of the things that is really confusing me is how passive Perception ties into this. Because, as you might be already aware, passive Perception has been massively downgraded in the new rules. It doesn't get a mention in Chapter 1, and a minor mention in Chapter 2 (Creating the Game).

But then you get this text in the DMG (Chapter 2 - Running the Game):

When to Call for a Check​

An important time to call for a Wisdom (Perception) check is when another creature is using the Stealth skill to hide. Noticing a hidden creature is never trivially easy or automatically impossible, so characters can always try Wisdom (Perception) checks to do so.

Using Passive Perception. Sometimes, asking players to make Wisdom (Perception) checks for their characters tips them off that there’s something they should be searching for, giving them a clue you’d rather they didn’t have. In those circumstances, use characters’ Passive Perception scores instead.


Read the first paragraph. So, is the DM calling for the players to roll, or are the players choosing to roll? It seems both.

Then the second paragraph. If there's a creature hiding in the room, the DM starts using passive Perception... which indicates that, all of sudden, that becomes relevant for Stealth again.



Sidenote: Passive Perception is mostly unmentioned in the PHB. Except in the spell effects for Enthrall! Chapter 2 has how to calculate it and write it on your character sheet. The Rules Glossary does have it as a topic (hooray!)

Chapter 2 (Fill in Numbers):
Passive Perception. Sometimes your DM will determine whether your character notices something without asking you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check; the DM uses your Passive Perception instead. Passive Perception is a score that reflects a general awareness of your surroundings when you’re not actively looking for something.

Rules Glossary
Passive Perception is a score that reflects a creature’s general awareness of its surroundings. The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check.