Tiers Excerpt (merged)

[AZRogue]

I thought for sure someone would comment on how many times they said "superheroics" already. It must be too early.

 

[FireLance]

But Derren, I thought you were complaining that all the problem spells had been taken out?

Hong, too much thinking about fantasy messageboard posts is bad.

 

[hong]

I thought for sure someone would comment on how many times they said "superheroics" already. It must be too early.

That's for Thursday.

 

[vagabundo]

Seems like all the "problem spells" are still in the game so prepare for lots of whining from people who had their plots ruined by rituals....

I like rituals.

I mean, I really like RITUALS.

I REALLY REALLY LIKE RITUALS...

The make much more sense to me and if they are anything like incantations from PHB2(??) they will be easier to manage.

 

[FireLance]

I thought for sure someone would comment on how many times they said "superheroics" already. It must be too early.

Someone else would just point out that 8th-level fighters were already called superheroes in Basic D&D and 1e AD&D. Then again, the seas of darkness between the points of light on the internet are mostly made up of pointless (and lightless ) arguments.

 

[ShockMeSane]

There will always be spells that are a problem for a certain Campaign/DM/Playergroup. No edition of D&D will ever solve this.

And smart DM's will do what they have always done, which is castrate/remove problem spells which adversely effect the gameplay of their campaign. I'm really not even sure why this is such an ongoing discussion on this forum. There are such a plethora of ways to deal with the issue from the mechanical (What? Your teleport didn't work? I guess the area you attempted to Scry was under a powerful illusion or enchantment), the diplomatic (listen buddy, its a deal breaker for me to DM for you if you are going to constantly try to find ways to abuse my campaign, so we're going to pretend X spell isn't castable if you want to keep gaming with us), or the downright nasty jerk (oh, your attempt to summon the Dark God through your Gate was scrambled by the mighty "Artifact of X", and your Wizard is disintegrated. If there was anyone in the world who could cast Wish, we could maybe get him back but I'm afraid there isn't, go over to the corner and re-roll).

I've never had anyone leave one of my campaigns over my removal or "nerfing" of a spell I didn't like from a DM'ing perspective, but even if I had, it would have been a small loss. Or really, some kind of gain.

Sure there are groups of players/DMs who love Teleport Without Error/Scry/Gate/Wish etc etc, and more power to 'em. I'm just saying, if you are offended by any particular spell, it's about a one minute long discussion with your group about how it will effect the enjoyment of the campaign to remove it.

 

[vagabundo]

You're probably right, but unless the new powers are clearly built off of the older ones (like natural progressions of the same ability) then I think "forgetting" an old ability when you get a new one is too much of a disconnect for me. It's like a bad Reese's peanut buttercups commerical--they got their Vancian in my martial combat abilities. And they don't taste great together.

I dont have much of a problem with "forgetting" a power, I see it more as your not keeping it sharp and your focusing your training on other, more powerful abilities.

In my martial art days, "forgetting" would happen to me in competitive sparring. My techniques would slowly change over the course of my time in MA. I would get rusty at some things I could have landed easily years before. I wouldn't use them any more in competitive sparring and I would focus on a subset of techniques I had trained hard in. There is only a certain amount of training time you have and to keep sharp you have to focus, even the masters, while they know and can teach hundreds of techniques, would keep to a small subset when threatened.

In a life or death situation you would even be more conservative.

IMO 4e enhances your fighting style, more so than 3e, due to this power selection. PCs of the same class can seem quite different.

 

[Arkenos]

Hp comparison at 20th level :

3e average 20th lvl Fighter with 21 constitution :
10 + 19D10 + 100 hp = 215 hp on average. (120 - 300 variance)

4e average 20th lvl Fighter with 21 constitution :
6*20 + 9 + 21 = 150 hp (no variance)

--

3e average 20th lvl Cleric with 19 constitution :
8 + 19d8 + 80 = 174 hp on average (100- 240 variance)

4e average 20th lvl Cleric with 19 constitution :
5*20 + 7 + 19 = 126 hp on average (no variance)

--

3e average 20th lvl Rogue with 17 constitution :
6 + 19d6 + 60 = 133 hp on average (80 - 180 variance)

4e average 20th lvl Rogue with 17 constitution :
5*20 + 7 + 19 = 126 hp on average (no variance)

--

3e average 20th lvl Wizard with 15 constitution :
4 + 19d4 + 40 = 92 hp on average. (60 - 120 variance)

4e average 20th lvl Wizard with 15 constitution :
4*20 + 6 + 15 = 101 hp (no variance)

--

Using these average values, fighters and clerics get much less hp at high level than in 3e, rogues get about the same and wizards slightly more.
In 3e the hp difference between wizard/fighter is 92 vs 215
In 4e the hp difference between wizrad/fighter is 101 vs 150

However, healing surges are not taken into account here and are likely to be a big deal on overall combat endurance, so actual hp number comparison is to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I like rituals.

I mean, I really like RITUALS.

I REALLY REALLY LIKE RITUALS...

The make much more sense to me and if they are anything like incantations from PHB2(??) they will be easier to manage.

Unearthed Arcana, IIRC. And Urban Arcana (d20 Modern).
I liked the idea, but the execution didn't seem too work that well. Using skills in 3E D&D (and d20 modern) for tasks that should be limited by levels - like spellcasting - is next to impossible.

 

[Jack99]

Seems like all the "problem spells" are still in the game so prepare for lots of whining from people who had their plots ruined by rituals....

So in 3.5 several spells are problematic. In 4e, they still exist, at least in name (please notice that a spell like Mirror Image has changed considerably, while retaining it's name), but most are now rituals (which we don't know how work), and yet, you still "conclude" that they will ruin plots.


You must simply be too brilliant for me, because I really can't say, how you can pass that off (with a straight face) as logic, even though we are on an interweb message-board.