Tiers Excerpt (merged)

[Lizard]

Totally agree. The ritual should be called "Warwizard's Scryblade."

"Bumbleflether's Most Puissant Viewing Of The Remotest Reaches".

Namin' it Old School!

 

[Cadfan]

In 4th edition, the gypsy woman's combat level does not strictly determine her noncombat abilities. Asking questions like "why does a 6th level controller get to scry when my 8th level wizard does not," is like asking "why does a level 1 person who's farmed all their life have a better Profession: Dirt Farmer check than my level 20 sorcerer???" You have apparently internalized the flaws in 3e so deeply that you mistake them for realism.

 

[hong]

"Always in motion, the future is."

(I usually use scrying/precog as an excuse for the villains to be prepared.

The first rule of s*mul*tionism is that there are no red and blue circles around people's feet.

Yes, my villains say "Bwahaahah!". In one game, it was faxed.

Of course, none of this is particularly relevant to the thread. But you asked...

Insert 100-page s*mul*tionist screed for why 15-foot teleporting fey are perfectly reasonable.

 

[Dausuul]

In 4th edition, the gypsy woman's combat level does not strictly determine her noncombat abilities. Asking questions like "why does a 6th level controller get to scry when my 8th level wizard does not," is like asking "why does a level 1 person who's farmed all their life have a better Profession: Dirt Farmer check than my level 20 sorcerer???" You have apparently internalized the flaws in 3e so deeply that you mistake them for realism.

I am so sigging that.

 

[franzel]

Using these average values, fighters and clerics get much less hp at high level than in 3e, rogues get about the same and wizards slightly more.
In 3e the hp difference between wizard/fighter is 92 vs 215
In 4e the hp difference between wizrad/fighter is 101 vs 150

However, healing surges are not taken into account here and are likely to be a big deal on overall combat endurance, so actual hp number comparison is to be taken with a grain of salt.

That's why healing surges are in the game. The idea is that all classes have similar hit point values, so a DM never has to worry that if the BBEG goes after the wizard he will destroy him in a few hits (since his damage is scaled to deal with the fighter's much higher hit point total). Everyone has roughly the same burst survivability but higher CON characters (and defenders in general) have much better encounter and long-term endurance which is exactly what I would want in D&D, but 4e is the first time it will actually be implemented. IMO, it's one of the more elegant pieces of 4e that I'm aware of at this point.

Also, this has been discussed already in an ENWorld thread from a month ago:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221297

 

[med stud]

It kind of bothers me that scrying is so high level, as it's usually a low-power Old Wise Woman trick. It's the sort of thing I'd expect to be a Heroic Tier ritual, so the Court Wizard or the Mysterious Gypsy Woman could have it. Then again, with "Exception based design", I suppose I could say "Gypsy Fortunetellers (6th level Elite Controller (Leader)) have the Scry ritual. You can't learn it until you're 20th level. Sucks to be you."

I think "Sucks to be you" is going to be my answer to a lot of player questions, if I ever run 4e...

(Please don't tell me about the obvious game balance reason. I know the game balance reason. It's another case where flavor and Classic Tropes have been ambushed by game balance, poisoned, stabbed, and flung into the icy river to drown, only to stagger out later and...oh wait, that's Rasputin. Where was I going with this?)

I won't bring up game balance, I will instead bring up the Gypsy Woman. Gypsy Women tend to be vague, I haven't seen an instance of a gypsy woman showing you your enemies living room in real time.

In the case a gypsy woman does show someone the living room etc, I would say that she probably is high level, an old woman that you don't want to cross. Why is she hanging out in a gypsy train with that kind of power? Well, you never know with magicians.

 

[Cadfan]

Totally agree. The ritual should be called "Warwizard's Crimson Scryblade of Razor Certainty."

Fixed it for you.

You cast it by dipping your sword (you're a warwizard) into the blood of a slain foe. The blood instantly slides up the blade, creating a thin, smooth, reflective coating. As you stare at your face in the reflection, the world around you fades to your senses. You see images of the enemy you hunt, and hear the beating of his heart.

 

[hong]

Crimson Scryblade of Razor Certainty is so Exalted.

I want one of those too!

 

[Lizard]

In 4th edition, the gypsy woman's combat level does not strictly determine her noncombat abilities. Asking questions like "why does a 6th level controller get to scry when my 8th level wizard does not," is like asking "why does a level 1 person who's farmed all their life have a better Profession: Dirt Farmer check than my level 20 sorcerer???" You have apparently internalized the flaws in 3e so deeply that you mistake them for realism.

You rather seem to have missed my point.

I fully understand 4e doesn't link combat and other powers. Hence, there's no reason why I *can't* give the ritual to an otherwise weak character, via the miracle of exception based design, and just tell the players "Sucks to be you" if they complain.

I'm agreeing with your post, and with the design philosophy of 4e, whole-heartedly.

I don't need to make a "gypsy seer" class or special feats or anything else tying it to PC mechanics; I just stat up a monster of whatever level I think an old gypsy woman should be, and give her whatever rituals I think she should have to do her job in the plot. Same as with any other "Monsters can, players can't" mechanic. "Sucks to be you!"

It's a good motto. I might like 4e after all.

(Gypsy camp encounter...one Old Gypsy Woman, one gypsy bravo (elite soldier), eight Scampering Gypsy Rogues (minions))

EDIT: You can get some great powers out of this...
"It is all happening as I have foreseen"
Immediate * Psychic * Recharge 6
As an opportunity action, any time an ally of the Old Gypsy Woman is forced to move adjacent to an enemy, she may used this power to allow him to make an Opportunity Attack against that enemy, if he wishes.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

"Then why isn't SHE out defeating the orcs?"

Forgotten Realms pre 4E has all the answers. (If they didn't help you for FR - like me - they won't help you with your oracle, either.)

Note to self:Right down dialog from the hybrid in BSG to use for Old Gypsy Women.

Thanks, for two reasons:
Reminding me of the name of the Cylon Baseship Controller Person (wanted to use it in a BSG discussion, but couldn't remember it, and for a good idea! (But the Hybrid talk seems to fit better for a sci-fi setting, does it not?)

"So...old gypsy woman...alone in the wagon...no one really watching...with a magic item that grants an epic tier ability....hmmm...you did say that with no real alignments in this edition, there's no penalty for out-of-alignment acts....hmmm..."

So...old gypsy woman...alone in the wagon...no one really watching...with the ability to scry...hmm...I've got an Intimidate Skill of +12... there's no penalty for out-of-alignment acts-....hmm..."


In a way, this is an age-old problem. Why don't characters not simply attack the merchant selling them their cool magical items? Why don't they even try? How could can his defenses really be?