To stack effects or not to Stack effects.

[PeelSeel2]

This was discussed very recently here. I want a recap. This is my understanding:

Saving throws are made vs. effects and conditions. Effects can have conditions which they apply. If an effect deals ongoing damage of a type, only the effect with the highest damage of that type applies.

A character has two effects against him. In the case of two different monsters, one with an effect that deals 5 ongoing poison and one dealing 10 ongoing poison. The character would take 10 damage at start of round. At the end of the round he would make two saves, one vs. the 5 effect and 1 versus the 10 effect. I think this is pretty clear per RAW.

Different situation:
The same character is hit twice by the same monster, dealing 5 ongoing poison, applying the same effect on two different rounds. The first round he did not save versus the 5 ongoing damage. The second round he got hit again by it. At the end of the round he has two effects on him, both are the same both dealing 5hp per round. Only the highest applies, so he never has to take more than 5hp. My interpretation says that he has to make two saves, one for each effect. If he fails one and saves on the other, the character is still taking 5 hp at the beginning of next round.

 

[Hypersmurf]

At the end of the round he would make two saves, one vs. the 5 effect and 1 versus the 10 effect. I think this is pretty clear per RAW.

I'm not sure that's clear at all... PHB p278 says that "You make a separate saving throw against each damage type." The implication is that no matter how many powers have inflicted ongoing poison damage on you, you make one saving throw against the poison damage type... which makes sense, given that it also says that when you get hit with multiple instances of the same type, only the highest number applies.

If you get hit with ongoing poison 5 (save ends) and ongoing poison 10 (save ends), only the highest number applies... so you are affected by ongoing poison 10 (save ends).

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not sure that's clear at all... PHB p278 says that "You make a separate saving throw against each damage type." The implication is that no matter how many powers have inflicted ongoing poison damage on you, you make one saving throw against the poison damage type... which makes sense, given that it also says that when you get hit with multiple instances of the same type, only the highest number applies.

If you get hit with ongoing poison 5 (save ends) and ongoing poison 10 (save ends), only the highest number applies... so you are affected by ongoing poison 10 (save ends).

What happens if one of those effects has a modifier to the saving throw?

Is the modifier used only if it is the stronger effect? Or, is the modifier always used?

 

[Griogre]

It's not clear at all what is suppose to happen in the case of effects that are "almost" the same. If you read the whole section in context, I think the it is clear that simple poison 5, poison 10, ongoing save ends stuff is suppose to be combined to just a save ends Poison 10 effect. After that it gets very murky.

My take is that if you have something that is different save wise or effect wise they are seperate saves - ie a Poison 5 at -2 save and a poison 10 ongoing. You also have the problems with a Poison + "Some other condition". Until we get more clarity, I am just making people save vs. the different effects (but some powers have things that say a save ends two effects).

What I think is true is if you are hit three times by a poison 5 (save ends) you only make one save to end all of them.

 

[the Jester]

I think in the case of ongoing poison 10 (save ends) and ongoing poison 5 and weakened (save ends both) (for instance), I'd combine it to ongoing poison 10 (save ends) and weakened (save ends).

If it was ongoing poison 10 and weakened (save ends both) and ongoing poison 5 (save ends), I'd just forget the ongoing poison 5- it doesn't really add anything, and the 'weakened' is already tied to the poison 10.

What about ongoing poison 5 (save at -2; save ends) and ongoing poison 10? This one is tougher- I'd prolly do something like ongoing poison 10 (save at -1) or else rule that if you made your save by 1 or 2, you reduce it to ongoing 5...

There does seem to be some room for interpretation here, though.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What happens if one of those effects has a modifier to the saving throw?

Is the modifier used only if it is the stronger effect? Or, is the modifier always used?

Discussion with CustServ on the matter:

p278 says "If effects deal ongoing damage of different types... make a separate saving throw against each damage type."

It also says "If effects deal ongoing damage of the same type... only the higher number applies."

Let's say a character is hit five times in one round, with effects that deal 5 ongoing fire damage (save ends), 10 ongoing fire damage (save ends), 5 ongoing poison damage (save ends), 5 ongoing poison damage (save ends), and 10 ongoing poison damage (save ends).

It's clear that the amount of damage he takes each round is 10 fire damage and 10 poison damage.

It's unclear how many saving throws he makes. Does he make two (one vs poison, which will remove all ongoing poison damage, and one vs fire, which will remove all ongoing fire damage)? Or does he make five (one vs each effect - so he could succeed at three saves, fail two, and still be taking some ongoing damage next round)?

The phrase "a separate save against each damage type" seems to imply one save vs poison, and one save vs fire. Is this accurate?

Thank you for writing.

It will require 2 saves. One for 10 ongoing fire damage and another for 10 ongoing poison damage.

Paul
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast

Hi - thanks for the prompt answer. It's the one the wording seems to indicate, but it leads to another question.

Let's say that someone is hit three times, with three different effects:
1. 5 ongoing poison damage (save ends), -2 penalty on saving throw.
2. 5 ongoing poison damage and dazed (save ends both).
3. 10 ongoing poison damage and weakened (save ends both).

On his turn, he takes 10 poison damage, and he is dazed and weakened. But how many saving throws does he make, and at which modifier, and which condition(s) can each save end?

You will need to make three separate saves at the end of your turn for each effect. The -2 will apply until that save is made.

Paul
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast

So, if I understand him right, 'vanilla' ongoing damage of a certain type rolls into a single effect that a single save can end. It doesn't matter how many "Ongoing Poison X, save ends" you get hit with, you take damage equal to the highest value of X, and a single successful save removes Ongoing Poison from your character.

But as soon as the ongoing damage is no longer vanilla - there's a modifier, or it's part of a dual condition, or whatever, it needs to be saved against separately. So our PC in the second example could make his save at -2 against the ongoing poison 5, and make his save against the poisoned-and-dazed, but if he fails the third save, he's still weakened and taking 10 ongoing poison damage.

I don't like the lack of consistency there.

-Hyp.

 

[PeelSeel2]

Hyp, that is interesting. It is also very inconsistent, as you pointed out. According to various sections of the rules, it should be 5 saves.

The rules never state you roll effects into each other. It states that effects stack. It states that you make saves versus each effect.

It also mentions saves versus conditions, but most of the references to conditions are in the context of coming from effects.

My players and I have already discussed this and we are going to continue to stack all effects until an official FAQ is released that is clearer than mud.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It states that you make saves versus each effect.

But for ongoing damage, it specifies a save against each type of ongoing damage, not a save against each instance, effect, or cause of ongoing damage. Two types? Two saves. Even if there were seven effects causing those two types.

-Hyp.