Tome of Battle: Bo9S classes in actual play?

[Rystil Arden]

I have a feeling anything that allows 6 people to "take an extra turn" is as broken in DND as it is in Magic

Correct. Except it allows as many people as can charge the same person to take the extra turn (they don't count as blocking each other for the purposes of this), gives all of them +25 to damage (and the guy who uses the manoeuvre gets +50), gives a +2 to hit for each person who does so (no limit to this stacking), if the main guy and one other person hit, the enemy is stunned without a save.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

They only had six (easy enough to manage against the size Huge aspect). The Warblade, the Fighter, the Ninja, the Paladin of Freedom/Spymaster (mostly there to add the +2, since he's kind of wimpy, but at least he got to Smite Law on it), the Arcane Trickster (probably wishes she hadn't charged, but they wanted the +2 to hit, and she got Sneak Attacks in at least), and the Marshal (kind of wimpy at charging, but again, the +2 is too much to ignore--she also did a Major Aura to raise everyone's to-hit).

The +25 to damage cancelled out Mammon's DR, and everybody who could Power Attack did so. The Warblade had a nasty charge because he knew he was White Raven only, and White Raven has a bunch of Charge manoeuvres, so he took Leap Attack, etc. He did around 95 Damage after the DR (remember he has +50 rather than +25). The Fighter had some PHII feat that let him strike twice on the charge and he did even more, I think 120 after DR. The Ninja was kind of wimpy on the charge, dealing only 30 after DR, but watch his space later for when he gets a full attack. The Paladin of Freedom got off a Smite Law, so he actually managed to outdamage the Ninja for once, barely, dealing about 35 after DR. The Arcane Trickster did 40 after DR. The Marshal did 25.

That's 345 Damage. And nobody but the Warblade spent more than an immediate action. Also, Mammon was Stunned with no save.

So, next in initiative was the Fighter. He was right next to it already, so he took a full attack and killed Mammon. Just for fun, I decided to see how much damage Mammon would have taken before he got a turn to act, mostly thanks to the Warblade (and his bringing everybody up where they could make a full attack plus stunning). The answer turned out to be that they did over 1000 damage (345 of which was all during the Warblade's turn when he used Warmaster's Charge).

Although I do agree any 'grant extra action' ability is potentially broken, your example doesn't demonstrate it.

First of all, in the example you gave, you had a +50% strength party (bumping them to APL 18 at least) and one of them was a marshal.

Also, with two fighters like the one in your writeup (each with a 120 damage first action) and a wizard casting an effective 51d6 empowered disintegrate (175 damage first action), you're already up to 415 damage with only three PCs. Number four only has to chip in another 85 to drop a 500 hp monster in the first round.

Now, it's possible one or more of those characters could fail. They aren't guaranteed a one-round kill by any means - but it's certainly the *likely* result of their attack.

On the flip side, a CR 17 marilith and sufficient support to make the battle with her EL 21 can eat them for breakfast if played remotely intelligently. A squad of 8 hezrou should more than suffice should solve either my fighters-and-wizzy attack or your ubercharge sword sage and friends, while still leaving Mari with an extra CR 19 chum to add to her retinue before it becomes EL 21. What say we throw in a fiendish white dragon of the very old persuasion? He even has the right alignment. Mari can ride him (not like that...! Although with how dragons and demons are in D&D... ) and be essentially un-charge-able.

Heck, that squad wouldn't even have to be played intelligently. Multiple DC 24 Fort saves for all involved courtesy of the piquant aroma of the hezrou (and, of course, GTAW so it's impossible to avoid) to avoid being far, far worse than stunned? Nauseated PCs are essentially out of the battle, and even a save-focused arcanist will have a tough time making multiple DC 24 Fort saves. The marilith is a melee beast, as is the dragon; care to place bets on how that pair, capable of choosing who to fight from among the handful of PCs not rolling on the ground puking their guts out, will fare two-on-one against a 17th level chatacter of any persuasion?

(Oversized) party vs. one monster tells you nothing, because one monster will either kill or be killed in essentially no time at all.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The Arcane Trickster and Marshal are lower-level cohorts (and the Paladin might as well be in a fight, although he's good at Diplomacy)

To do that 500 damage in your example, the entire party has to win initiative. Also, the fighter would likely not have hit both times without the +12 from the Warblade. Finally, expecting anything (particularly a CR 21 demon) to fail the save against a Disintegrate is a bit presumptuous (and don't forget SR 34).

As to the second encounter, they would have slaughtered it. Not enough AC or to-hit to matter (for comparison, Mammon had AC 41 and +42/+37/+32/+27,+35,+35) except for the Dragon, and DR the party can penetrate. If the marilith is out of reach but the hezrou are clumping up (I'm not sure how this is set up, exactly, but we'll assume that somehow they did), as many as he can reach will die when the Fighter gets his turn (which, based on the Hezrou's initiative bonus of +0, is guaranteed to be before all of the hezrou) thanks to that AC 23. As to the DC 24 Stench--Mammon had a DC 35 Poison, and that was closer to being right for the party. The only character with bad Fort is the Arcane Trickster, and she doesn't matter. Nobody else will fail against the Stench unless they roll very poorly, and the Ninja/Monk is even immune. The Hezrou can't hit anyone in the party with their Bite +14 melee. The Marilith has a palatable chance to hit, but she'd need to set up for a full attack to land attacks regularly (that is, more than once every four rounds or so), and if she takes a full attack from the Ninja/Monk and the Fighter, she's dead (the Ninja/Monk doesn't have as many attacks as the Marilith, but he's decently close, and they hit harder--plus they can all Power Attack full and still hit her AC). The dragon is the most useful of the bunch thanks to tolerable AC and HP, but he won't do so well alone.

Much to the designer's credit, the CR 21 Aspect of Mammon was actually an entertaining EL 21 challenge. And I do recognise that this is a marked change from most high-CR Outsiders, and I completely agree with you that the MM high-CR Outsiders are worthless as lone opponents for the party.

 

[Brother Richard]

Note To All

I would like to note that a Warblade can use his charge ability every fight. Therefore, even if you think it is balanced with a powerful wizard using his alpha attack...this is not an alpha attack. It is just what the Warblade does every fight he can.

-I agree with Rystil Arden

 

[Rystil Arden]

I would like to note that a Warblade can use his charge ability every fight. Therefore, even if you think it is balanced with a powerful wizard using his alpha attack...this is not an alpha attack. It is just what the Warblade does every fight he can.

-I agree with Rystil Arden

He can even use it every other round if circumstances dictate it (for instance, in the marilith fight, a sneaky Warblade could use his Warmaster's Charge on round 1 on one of the Hezrou to get everyone positioned for full attacks, then recover the manoeuvre and simply wait for the marilith to inevitably come down and try to stab someone with a sword, quickly using another Warmaster's Charge on her (or her dragon) immediately and bringing the rest of the group right there, while stunning the marilith (but not the dragon if they pick him).

 

[VirgilCaine]

Edit: I do not believe you can take the Martial Stance feat more than once.

Bo9S, p. 31: Martial Stance
Special: You can choose this feat more than once.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

The Arcane Trickster and Marshal are lower-level cohorts (and the Paladin might as well be in a fight, although he's good at Diplomacy)

To do that 500 damage in your example, the entire party has to win initiative. Also, the fighter would likely not have hit both times without the +12 from the Warblade. Finally, expecting anything (particularly a CR 21 demon) to fail the save against a Disintegrate is a bit presumptuous (and don't forget SR 34).

As to the second encounter, they would have slaughtered it. Not enough AC or to-hit to matter (for comparison, Mammon had AC 41 and +42/+37/+32/+27,+35,+35) except for the Dragon, and DR the party can penetrate. If the marilith is out of reach but the hezrou are clumping up (I'm not sure how this is set up, exactly, but we'll assume that somehow they did), as many as he can reach will die when the Fighter gets his turn (which, based on the Hezrou's initiative bonus of +0, is guaranteed to be before all of the hezrou) thanks to that AC 23. As to the DC 24 Stench--Mammon had a DC 35 Poison, and that was closer to being right for the party. The only character with bad Fort is the Arcane Trickster, and she doesn't matter. Nobody else will fail against the Stench unless they roll very poorly, and the Ninja/Monk is even immune. The Hezrou can't hit anyone in the party with their Bite +14 melee. The Marilith has a palatable chance to hit, but she'd need to set up for a full attack to land attacks regularly (that is, more than once every four rounds or so), and if she takes a full attack from the Ninja/Monk and the Fighter, she's dead (the Ninja/Monk doesn't have as many attacks as the Marilith, but he's decently close, and they hit harder--plus they can all Power Attack full and still hit her AC). The dragon is the most useful of the bunch thanks to tolerable AC and HP, but he won't do so well alone.

Much to the designer's credit, the CR 21 Aspect of Mammon was actually an entertaining EL 21 challenge. And I do recognise that this is a marked change from most high-CR Outsiders, and I completely agree with you that the MM high-CR Outsiders are worthless as lone opponents for the party.

Let's break this down by monster group.

HEZROU

Hezrou are Large, so the fighter presumably can reach two at most at any given time. Also, he can do 138 hp in a single attack (I assume you're talking about Cleave, which only grants one attack)?

Assuming the average party member can only fail the save against the Hezrou stench on a 1-2 - which makes them *extremely* save buffed for APL 17, I might add - then the chances of them making all their saves is only 43% (passing eight 90% chances). This requires them to have Con and magic item bonuses of +12. If they fail on a 4 or less - which is still above average, IMO, requiring Con and magic items to amount to a +10 bonus -, they have only a 17% (passing eight 80% chances) chance to make it through the encounter without failing once. If they have what I would consider *average* fighter Fort saves (+18), they have only about a 2% chance of making all eight saves (passing eight 60% chances). I'd say an APL party even close to reasonable for their level will lose well over half their numbers to the hezrou stench. I suppose I can see the paladin of freedom making his saves (+10 base, +5 Con, +4 Cha, +4 magic items?) more often than not, and the monk is immune, but by rights the warblade and fighter should expect to drop just from the stench, and they appear to be the primary damage dealers.

The hezrou have a 10 ft. reach, so they never need to take a full attack from anyone smaller than them. You didn't mention the test characters' races, so I'm assuming they're human or at least Medium. The ninja should be largely hosed in this fight because they never need to take more than two attacks from him - one from his attack and one from his AoO.

Admittedly, barring dropping the whole party with Stench (ninja excepted) and slowly beating them to death on natural 20s (the whole party has AC 34 as well as Fort saves of +18? ), which is hardly out of the question, the hezrou probably can't kill any combat PCs.

MARILITH

On her own, she would maybe challenge one PC - which is proper, she's the same CR as them - but would probably be hosed against two or more. Fair 'nough.

However, she doesn't ever want full attacks. She wants to hit exactly once, and that with her tail. Her objective should be to grapple and constrict, because she should be able to reliably kill any one PC this way. Or do the PCs in question have Grapple bonuses of +29 in addition to being mass damagers, save tanks and AC tanks? (Admittedly, a Ring of Freedom of Movement would stop this).

The marilith would be the weak link here, provided she weren't riding the:

FIENDISH WHITE DRAGON

First of all, if the dragon gets a single action, no one need ever charge in this battle. Freezing fog acts as a solid fog (which would prevent it) *and* doubles as a grease spell over the entire area (which would also prevent it). I'm not clear if the grease effect would last after the fog disperses; if so, then that's practically an auto-win against a charge-focused group. Otherwise it just gives the fiends a limited tactical advantage and may not be worth using. I'm thinking it is because the hezrou will last longer, but their offense will be considerably reduced, too.

The dragon can deliver the marilith and himself into grappling range without ever provoking an attack of opportunity or being in reach of the PCs. This right here has to be dealt with (by a fly spell, presumably, which from the looks of it would be the domain of the arcane trickster; pity she 'doesn't matter' and is almost certainly downed if even two hezrou approach her). Otherwise, the range-lacking PCs pretty much have to flee or die - how else can they plink away hundreds of hp?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Based on the scenario you describe, I fail to see how the PCs let themselves get into a spot where eight hezrou are all within 10 feet of all the PCs but yet no more than two are within reach of the Fighter.

Even if that is physically possible (and I can't puzzle out how it is--I've tried arranging eight hezrou a few ways and can't manage to even fit the entire party in all their stenches), it seems like a contrived ambush scenario that would never happen unless the party was being pretty silly.

The party does have a Ring of Freedom of Movement and flying items, plus the Ninja/Monk has insane Jump (if they fly low enough to grapple, he can jump that high for sure). And the Arcane Trickster truly doesn't matter. She's a cohort, and generally contributes by setting off traps that she's trying to disarm

Remember that the Warblade was a hypothetical substitution to the team for playtesting, so they don't ordinarily run around charging willy-nilly in the game, but with the Warblade around, I can imagine a flying charge brigade would put a damper on the Marilith's day. The dragon is strong though, and it has a better fly speed--it will probably live to run away.

 

[brehobit]

On the warmaster's charge....

I think you can't take an immediate action if you are flat-footed correct? So that would seem to be a fairly serious limitation on the ability as the baddy may have already closed by then...

Still broken mind you, just broken less often

 

[Rystil Arden]

On the warmaster's charge....

I think you can't take an immediate action if you are flat-footed correct? So that would seem to be a fairly serious limitation on the ability as the baddy may have already closed by then...

Still broken mind you, just broken less often

Oh--oops! That's excellent! It's still broken, but at least it doesn't mean an insta-win if the Warblade wins initiative and nobody else does.