Touch attack for Evard's Black Tentacles?

[Hypersmurf]

Black tentacles has no such limiting language. It says, instead, "Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check." It doesn't say "only when the spell is cast." It doesn't say "when the tentacles appear." The only test it offers is: "Is this a creature within the area of the spell?" If the answer is "yes," the creature is subject to being grappled.

Hmm? It says that the spell conjures a field of tentacles that spring forth from the earth and entwine around creatures. Creatures in the area must make a grapple check.

Then, it says that the tentacles may make additional grapple checks on your turn to deal damage to creatures that are already grappled. It doesn't say they make additional grapple checks on your turn to entwine around creatures. Additional grapple checks on your turn are only mentioned for creatures that are alraedy grappled.

To attack another creature, the condition is that they enter the area - and it occurs on their turn, not on the caster's turn.

-Hyp.

 

[Nellisir]

...

Wow. Somehow we've managed to read the same spells in exactly the opposite ways (except maybe flaming sphere).

Offhand, does anyone know if a wall of fire or similar vertical barrier actually occupies standard 5x5 spaces? I've been assuming it's a 2-dimensional barrier that manifests at square borders, and does not actually occupy a square, but there's not a consensus in my group.

And yes, this would mean creatures would have to occupy at least two sqaures to be "in" the wall of fire, or blade barrier.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[KarinsDad]

Offhand, does anyone know if a wall of fire or similar vertical barrier actually occupies standard 5x5 spaces? I've been assuming it's a 2-dimensional barrier that manifests at square borders, and does not actually occupy a square, but there's not a consensus in my group.

And yes, this would mean creatures would have to occupy at least two sqaures to be "in" the wall of fire, or blade barrier.

Wall of Fire puts out heat damage in a 10 foot area on one side of the wall. So, it is less of an issue than Blade Barrier.

I tend to rule Wall of Fire as a 2D barrier (course, the other DM took over tonight now that class is over for him, so I no longer have to rule anything for a while, yea ).

Ditto for Blade Barrier.

However, the thing about "line" spells (like Lightning Bolt, Blade Barrier, etc.) is that you can basically run them through squares if you so desire (as opposed to on square edges), but then they can do damage to any creature within a square that the line passes through (assuming the creature fails the save).

I would rule that any creature attempting to go into a square with a continuous line spell in it (such as Blade Barrier) is "passing through" the spell (even if only partially).

The exception to this is if you place the spell exactly on the square edge, in which case the creature would have to pass through the edge of the square to take the damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hmm? It says that the spell conjures a field of tentacles that spring forth from the earth and entwine around creatures. Creatures in the area must make a grapple check.

Then, it says that the tentacles may make additional grapple checks on your turn to deal damage to creatures that are already grappled. It doesn't say they make additional grapple checks on your turn to entwine around creatures. Additional grapple checks on your turn are only mentioned for creatures that are alraedy grappled.

To attack another creature, the condition is that they enter the area - and it occurs on their turn, not on the caster's turn.

Precisely, but it seems unlikely that you will convince Jeff of this. Either he is being purposely obtuse, or he reads the English language in a different way than everyone else.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Precisely, but it seems unlikely that you will convince Jeff of this. Either he is being purposely obtuse, or he reads the English language in a different way than everyone else.

Well, except you, since you rule the spell exactly as I read it. (You've apparently forgotten that.) Unless you've been lying all along, you actually disagree with Hypersmurf more than you disagree with me. He and I both claim the spell is unambiguous, while you claim it can be interpreted two different ways ... yet you apparently feel that my reading is stronger than his. (Again, unless you've been lying all along.)

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Wow. Somehow we've managed to read the same spells in exactly the opposite ways (except maybe flaming sphere).

Well, don't misunderstand me: my agreement with Hypersmurf on how blade barrier and flaming sphere work is solely an agreement of literal language, and should not be read as an agreement of how I would rule the spells actually work. I was just pointing out that the language of the spells he used to support his position differs significantly from the language of black tentacles ... which apparently doesn't matter to him.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, except you, since you rule the spell exactly as I read it. (You've apparently forgotten that.) Unless you've been lying all along, you actually disagree with Hypersmurf more than you disagree with me. He and I both claim the spell is unambiguous, while you claim it can be interpreted two different ways ... yet you apparently feel that my reading is stronger than his. (Again, unless you've been lying all along.)

Jeff, you don't get it. You are grasping at semantical straws and ignoring what people post.

There is a difference between how I would rule the spell as a DM and how the spell reads.

The spell is unclear, hence, a DM has to adjudicate it.

Just because I would adjudicate it that way does NOT mean that 1) it is the only way to adjudicate it or 2) the spell is clear because I would adjudicate it the same way you interpret it.

Hypersmurf took a literal interpretation of the spell which is fine. His interpretation is different than yours. Yet you still erroneously claim that the spell is clear. Hmmmm.

The spell does NOT state that the grapple attempt occurs every round.

You have yet to illustrate that it does.

The rules on longer duration area effect spells do NOT state that the effect occurs every round on the caster's turn by default.

You have yet to illustrate that they do.


Prove your point with rules because a boatload of posters agree that you cannot prove it with single minded interpretation.


Evard's is not much different than Blade Barrier or Flaming Sphere, both of which I would rule would do their damage every round in their areas as well because it is nonsensical that they would not. Yet, a literal reading of those spells would indicate that they do not. Ring of Blades was errata-ed to only occur on the caster's turn, the exact opposite of the other spells, which is just as nonsensical because if a character moves through the blades or even stands in the blades, he takes no damage.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Jeff, you don't get it.

Funny, I'd say you don't get it.

Just because I would adjudicate it that way does NOT mean that 1) it is the only way to adjudicate it or 2) the spell is clear because I would adjudicate it the same way you interpret it.

Nor did I say that was the meaning of your adjudication.

This is a common technique you use in your arguments here: you simply ignore what someone writes in favor of what you wish they'd written.

The spell does NOT state that the grapple attempt occurs every round. You have yet to illustrate that it does.

Nor have I even tried. I have, in fact, stated that the spell would be clearer if it did so. Per your modus operandi, you ignore that in an attempt to discredit an argument never made.

What I have instead said is that the spell, while it doesn't state a grapple check is made every turn, it also does not state limits on when a grapple check is made (except for the special case of "immediately" upon someone entering the area of the spell); it does not state that a grapple check is only made when the spell is initially cast. (As many other spells do.) It states only under which conditions a grapple check is made, and those conditions are simple: "a creature within the area of the spell."

The rules on longer duration area effect spells do NOT state that the effect occurs every round on the caster's turn by default. You have yet to illustrate that they do.

No, I have not, and once again you ignore the fact that I have repeatedly said that I have not. Your motive in implying that I've made an attempt to illustrate it and failed -- "you have not yet" -- is pretty clear, and, as I said, pretty standard for you.

If such a general rules exists, I do not know where to find it, and I'm not interested in combing through every rulebook to find it. Because:

If such a general rule doesn't exist, that doesn't change the spell's clear statement that a grapple check is required when a creature is within the area of the spell. If a DM wants to rule that the grapple check required should be made on the turn of the affected creature(s), rather than on the caster's turn, I've got no major problem with that. It would be more consistent to stick to the way it's done for other continuing effects in other spells, but in that respect, the spell is open to interpretation. (Again, assuming the absence of a general rule for when to resolve continuous effects.)

Prove your point with rules because a boatload of posters agree that you cannot prove it with single minded interpretation.

I have proven my case with rules, and I have proven it with the English language. You have ignored both.

As for a "boatload of posters," a "boatload of posters" routinely misunderstands spells.

Evard's is not much different than Blade Barrier or Flaming Sphere

It's not "much different" except that those two spells explicitly limit their continuing effects, depending upon trigger conditions, while black tentacles has a continuing effect with a very simple trigger condition: "a creature within the area of the spell."

 

[Thanee]

...while black tentacles has a continuing effect with a very simple trigger condition: "a creature within the area of the spell."

Ok, let's assume it is that way... the spell effect (grapple check) triggers by "being within the area of the spell".

How often and when exactly does the trigger apply?

Please underline your answer with rules quotes.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Ok, let's assume it is that way... the spell effect (grapple check) triggers by "being within the area of the spell".

How often and when exactly does the trigger apply?

Please underline your answer with rules quotes.

He cannot and will not because it is impossible to do.

Instead, he will continue to just spout off.