Touch attack for Evard's Black Tentacles?

[KarinsDad]

I have proven my case with rules, and I have proven it with the English language. You have ignored both.

The only thing that you have proven is that you are incapable of proving anything real within the rules.

Come back and re-post when you are willing to discuss the rules as written as opposed to your silly personal interpretations that do not even match what is written in the books.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Official answer from WotC customer service ...

Please note: I am not posting the below as support for my position, but rather solely for the benefit of those readers who might be wondering what an "official" answer to this debate would be. Frankly, my past experience with WotC customer service leads me to believe that they are equally as likely to have lucked into the correct answer as they are to have researched and reasoned their way to it.

"On the first round of an Evard's black tentacles spell, a fighter won the grapple check. On the second round, assuming he remains in the area, does he need to make another grapple check?"

"Yes, and every round he is in the area of effect of the tentacles.

Good Gaming!
To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Zephreum H.

Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST"

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Ok, let's assume it is that way... the spell effect (grapple check) triggers by "being within the area of the spell".

Why are we "assuming" it is that way? Do you honestly dispute that is explicitly what the text of the spell says? If you don't dispute that, then why do you need to "assume" it?

How often and when exactly does the trigger apply?

As I've said, that much is open to some interpretation. There are two possible times to test the conditions: on the creature's turn, or on the caster's turn.

It would be more consistent with other spells and effects to test on the caster's turn. Also, there would be little reason for the second trigger condition "creatures entering the area of the spell" if it were intended for the test to be on the creature's turn. (The second trigger condition would become at least somewhat redundant.)

Therefore, I believe that the condition is tested on the caster's turn. But, again, the clarity is "whether the grapple check occurs each round" (and it does); there is no definitive answer as to "when." (Nor did WotC provide one. I should have asked. I'll send a followup.)

EDIT. Wow. Quick turn-around. Gotta give 'em props for that, anyway. I asked, "When is each round's grapple check performed: (a) on the creature's turn, (b) on the caster's turn, or (c) at another time (please specify)?" Zephreum H responded, "The Character makes any further grapple checks on his subsequent initiatives if he has not left the area of effect."

 

[Thanee]

Why are we "assuming" it is that way? Do you honestly dispute that is explicitly what the text of the spell says?

Yes, of course, I do. There is no trigger condition, except the casting of the spell and the "entering the area" given in the spell description.

"Being within the area" is not a viable trigger condition, as there is no time interval given when a grapple check would occur (or any mentioning of such a recurring grapple check).

As written, if that "being within the area" would be such a trigger condition, it could only apply all the time, so everyone would be automatically grappled (unlimited grapple attacks), unless they would win against a natural 20 with a natural 1.

Also, there would be little reason for the second trigger condition "creatures entering the area of the spell" if it were intended for the test to be on the creature's turn. (The second trigger condition would become at least somewhat redundant.)

Yep. Or the first one would be redundant. Of course, the second one is quite definitely there, while the existance of the first one is highly suspect.

As I've said, that much is open to some interpretation. There are two possible times to test the conditions: on the creature's turn, or on the caster's turn.

Or start of the round (there are spells that work like this), or all the time (ok, I know this is silly, but it's what would result from reading it that way without adding non-existant content), or whenever else.

But, again, the clarity is "whether the grapple check occurs each round" (and it does)

What's clear about that? There is not even the slightest hint (other than the duration, which is explained later in the spell description by continued crushing of grappled victims) there, how can you say that it's clear?

It's certainly possible to envision the spell that way (and admittedly, this would be a rather natural vision of such a spell effect, apart from the rules), but it's quite clearly not, what the spell description says.

there is no definitive answer as to "when."

And you don't think that this is a rather strong hint, that there maybe is no "when"? Because this "trigger" simply doesn't exist and the grapple check mentioned is done immeditately when the spell is cast and only then?

"The Character makes any further grapple checks on his subsequent initiatives if he has not left the area of effect."

Yeah, right! Now that makes sense... not!

Ok, at least he was fast in answering...

Maybe you should ask him, why it is that way and how he got to that conclusion!

Tho, I'd really prefer if WotC Customer Service would not answer those questions with their own personal opinion, but rather check in some kind of database or something and if there is no answer to the question yet, ask someone who actually knows the answer and does not have to guess.

Bye
Thanee

 

[two]

Wow, it's been a lot of fun watching people split hairs on the tip of a pin upon which two angels perch (one upon the other's shoulders).

Oh yeah, no it hasn't, really.

 

[TheGogmagog]

I guess when you send a question to customer service, you have to ask them to show their work.

I doubt they would respond to that.

Me, I'll trust Hypersmurf over customer service any day.

 

[Ninja-to]

Right.

Just like Blade Barrier or Flaming Sphere.

I cast Blade Barrier through the middle of an ogre's space. He elects not to move, and takes damage. He stands there for the next five rounds, with the Blade Barrier bisecting his space; he takes no more damage.

I cast Flaming Sphere, and direct it into an orc's square. The orc fails his Reflex save, and takes damage. I get distracted and do something else for the enxt five rounds; the orc chooses to remain in his square. He does not need to make any more saves, and takes no more damage.

-Hyp.

I don't understand. So if you're not concentrating on a Flaming Sphere, a creature doesn't need to roll a saving throw to avoid damage if he hasn't moved? The Blade Barrier example I'm lost on as well.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't understand. So if you're not concentrating on a Flaming Sphere, a creature doesn't need to roll a saving throw to avoid damage if he hasn't moved? The Blade Barrier example I'm lost on as well.

If the spell does not state that it attacks every round on the caster's turn, it does not. Area Effect spells with a duration sometimes do this, but there is no rule that all such spells do this.

Flaming Sphere and Blade Barrier do not state this.

You have to segregate what you think should happen (if the blades are there every round, they should do damage every round) with what the spell actually states (it does damage in the area when cast and when a creature enters the area).

 

[Stalker0]

Alright, you guys can argue semantics till the end of time....and you all make excellent points....but it simply comes down to playability.

My wizard tried this spell one time on a group of some monsters or another, I don't remember. I got 10 creatures in the area. My group played that it was a new grapple check every round.

First round 10 grapple checks...ug... 1 made it. On their turn, 9 more grapple checks...2 made it. So 3 guys are free, but because of their positioning only one makes it out.

Next round 9 more grapple checks to reacquire...2 of them don't get regrappled. On their turn the 2 leave. 7 more grapple checks.

Ever since then my dm has banned that spell, not because of its power (which I personally think is too strong for a 4th level spell) but because it is such a pain to run in game.

So...put the arguments aside...if you want to keep your poor DM sane, make the spell so once you are free you stay free...it still a pain to run even with that ruling.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So if you're not concentrating on a Flaming Sphere, a creature doesn't need to roll a saving throw to avoid damage if he hasn't moved?

Read the spell description.

The only time Flaming Sphere deals damage is when the caster uses a Move action to direct the sphere into another creature's square - the sphere stops moving for the round and deals damage on a failed Reflex save.

If the caster doesn't direct the sphere to move into a creature's square, this condition is not fulfilled, and therefore no damage is dealt.

-Hyp.