D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[Guest 6801328]

How about this: if Treantmonk were to kickstart a variant spellbook, that adjusted (in power or level) every single spell in the OGL so that they were all the same color (or at least vastly more challenging to choose between them) I would happily back it.

I guess the tricky thing is that you either make everything as good as Counterspell, or you nerf Counterspell, which would piss off everyone. And if every spell were as good as Counterspell then Wizards would be too powerful.

Hmmm.

 

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

But 'extra attack' is also why it is not recommended that you multiclass between EK and BS because 'extra attack' is a HUGE non-stackable redundant feature that both classes share. You don't get anything from Bladesinger level 6. So going that fat into Bladesinger is actually a bad choice as a MC EK. You would probably be better off going Abjurer or only doing a two-level dip into Bladesinger.

The thing with extra attack and Greenflame Blade/Booming Blade is, that those cantrips generally scale as well as extra attack. There may be slight differences depending on the build but as a general rule, SCAG make extra attacks mostly unnecessary. They become a fallback option when a cantrip can't deliver the damage. Sneak attack on the other hand scales very well with the SCAG cantrips.
That's why I think an AT/BS is much better then EK/BS, even if you try to fill the role of a front line fighter. You trade in a few HP, action surge, second wind and an earlier ASI for Expertise, Cunning Action, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and a skill. The AT will deal more damage with sneak attack (very little more when EK peaks at lvl 7 but AT damage progression is much smoother and will outdo EK at higher levels).

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

The thing with extra attack and Greenflame Blade/Booming Blade is, that those cantrips generally scale as well as extra attack.

How so? The melee cantrips generally add a 1d8 at each power stage, or 4.5 damage on average. I would assume any extra attack from almost any build is going to do a lot more than that.

 

[jgsugden]

How about this: if Treantmonk were to kickstart a variant spellbook, that adjusted (in power or level) every single spell in the OGL so that they were all the same color (or at least vastly more challenging to choose between them) I would happily back it.

I guess the tricky thing is that you either make everything as good as Counterspell, or you nerf Counterspell, which would piss off everyone. And if every spell were as good as Counterspell then Wizards would be too powerful.

Hmmm.

This is a fool's errand as context alters the power of spells. If you want to balance them so that the peak utility of all spells were balanced, they'd look horribly unbalanced in general. If you balanced for the typical utility of a spell, you'd end up with horribly unbalanced spells, especially when used conditionally or for peak efficiency. There are a number of spells that can be improved, but they did a pretty good job, overall, with the spells and we should be grateful for them as is.

It would also be problematic as it would make wizards step on the toes of other classes. There are some things we want wizards to be able to do in a pinch, but not as well as a cleric, druid or melee PC.

 

[CapnZapp]

This is a fool's errand as context alters the power of spells. If you want to balance them so that the peak utility of all spells were balanced, they'd look horribly unbalanced in general. If you balanced for the typical utility of a spell, you'd end up with horribly unbalanced spells, especially when used conditionally or for peak efficiency. There are a number of spells that can be improved, but they did a pretty good job, overall, with the spells and we should be grateful for them as is.

It would also be problematic as it would make wizards step on the toes of other classes. There are some things we want wizards to be able to do in a pinch, but not as well as a cleric, druid or melee PC.

Hmm. A very strange reply.

Why take some highly theoretical stance? Almost like setting up a straw man.

And what's with the "we should be grateful" nonsense? There is absolutely no reason we can't expect D&D to improve on each iteration, and STILL there are red-brown spells even in the FIFTH edition?

Man, if this was real, those wizards responsible for creating the bottom dozen spells would have been fired or outcompeted a long time ago.

Sure it's a fool errand to think every spell could be blue or gold. (if every spell is similar, they're all "average", not "good") But it strikes me as uncharitable to interpret his post like that.

Asking for an edition with zero brown spells is entirely reasonable.

Asking for an edition that doesn't offer up dozens and dozens of blaster spells that have nothing to show for their lower damage visavi Fireball is very tired.

And so on. There are so many things D&D could have experimented with.

But all you have is "we should be grateful"?

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

How so? The melee cantrips generally add a 1d8 at each power stage, or 4.5 damage on average. I would assume any extra attack from almost any build is going to do a lot more than that.

Greenflame Blade adds 2d8 at lvl 5, 11 and 17. It does need a second foe though.

AT level 5, a Booming Blade* EK with 18 dex/str and 16 int does 3d8+9=22.5. With extra attack he does 2d8+12=21
At 11 it is 3d8+19 vs 5d8+10, which is exactly the same.

This is with a Longsword/Rapier and Dueling. A GWF will do more damage with his extra attacks, maybe I should have made clearer that I meant damage regarding my test builds which want to use bladesong.

If you do not have a second target for Green Flame Blade or the target doesn't move, the damage falls off. If you add features like war magic for an EK, you can really forgo the third extra attack because doing 3 attacks will net only 2.5 extra damage (if you lack a second target for Greenflame Blade).

Another big plus for Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade is, that it doesn't ask for class levels, it only asks for character levels. This is especially good for multi classed characters. You can offset lost damage from delayed extra attacks by scaling SCAG cantrips instead. A really solid option to break the math for multi class gishes

* edit: My brain blooped. My meant to say and calculated Greenflame Blade here :/

 

[Aldarc]

The thing with extra attack and Greenflame Blade/Booming Blade is, that those cantrips generally scale as well as extra attack. There may be slight differences depending on the build but as a general rule, SCAG make extra attacks mostly unnecessary. They become a fallback option when a cantrip can't deliver the damage. Sneak attack on the other hand scales very well with the SCAG cantrips.

Okay? My point was simply that when two classes grant "extra attack" as a feature, it doesn't stack, which makes it a problem for multiclassing any two classes that provide that feature. And both the EK and BS provide extra attacks as features. And that sort of major milestone redundancy is far more significant than redundant armor or weapon proficiencies.

 

[CapnZapp]

Okay? My point was simply that when two classes grant "extra attack" as a feature, it doesn't stack, which makes it a problem for multiclassing any two classes that provide that feature. And both the EK and BS provide extra attacks as features. And that sort of major milestone redundancy is far more significant than redundant armor or weapon proficiencies.

And his point is that now you're comparing to a theoretical build that doesn't exist

That is, an EK/BS can still be viable despite "losing out" on something major as Extra Attack, if the build gains other stuff that makes that loss irrelevant. And that is precisely what he argues cantrips that stack on character levels does

 

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I mostly agree. But I also think that the milestone features of the AT are generally better then the EK's for BS multi classes (maybe not so much when only dipping two levels for bladesong but I would argue that a shield or GWF and being human would be better). Redundancy certainly plays into this assessment.

 

[Aldarc]

I mostly agree. But I also think that the milestone features of the AT are generally better then the EK's for BS multi classes (maybe not so much when only dipping two levels for bladesong but I would argue that a shield or GWF and being human would be better). Redundancy certainly plays into this assessment.

Of course. I'm not arguing that AT is generally better than EK for multiclassing with the BS. That much is obvious. The BS synthesizes well with the Rogue's defensive and mobile skill set while also expanding the AT's limited spell selection.