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D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Yeah obviously I disagree about the first part. The volume of the bag is really irrelevant. You just do a goldfish without the bag. Suffocating does TWO things. Kills a creature. And reduces it to 0hp. If you believe those are the same thing I direct you to power word kill. RAW and Sage Advice agree, a wild shaped druid who gets PWK dies, then his corpse turns back to a druid, but it is a corpse. I treat suffocating exactly the same way for any creature not entitled to death saving throws.

I wouldn't, because suffocating is a general rule and power word kill is a specific rule tied to a high level spell. (which isn't even being cast in the example) They are not the same and shouldn't be treated that way. Suffocating kills you eventually, PWK kills you instantly.

Also the volume of the bag matters because it's not 500 lbs of weight and 64 ft cubed. It's either or.

Of course, interpretating things differently is what makes the game great.
 
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johnlent

First Post
That is not how "specific overrides general" works. The air genasi ability that says "You can hold your breath indefinitely while you’re not incapacitated," overrides the general rule about how long you can hold your breath. Nothing in polymorph says anything at all about the rules of holding your breath. There is no specific exception over riding the rules on suffocation. They are simply two different things happening at the same time: the gold fish running out of air, and the goldfish turning back into a monster.

I understand that from a game balance point of view, that is effectively making a 4th level "save or die in 6 rounds" spell. But that is on par with spells like sleep, hold person, hypnotic pattern, banishment etc. 5e combats do not last more than 4 rounds in almost any case, so a spell that kills something after six rounds... basically saves its life for two extra rounds!
 

If your party is in melee with multiple enemies and you want to do the typical god wizard thing, Slow is your best option. Sure, catching them with Hypnotic Pattern is way better but there are situations where you just can't to do that (low ini, being surprised etc).
Slow is only a candidate for 'best spell in your arsenal' when:
A) Your frontline is completely scrambled, making most AoE spells difficult to use even if the frontline spends a turn reorganizing.
B) You're fighting monsters that simultaneously have a middling WIS save and can be meaningfully screwed-over by restricting their spells/multiattack.
C) The monsters are in that Goldilocks zone of not being pasted by raw damage in one or two rounds while still not being over-CR'd to be a horde.

Do those situations occur? Yes, they do. My party got ambushed by a pack of Cloakers the other day. But for the most part? You're better off with an upcasted Blindness/Deafness, Hypnotic Pattern, or Fear. I only have so many spells prepared.

Thanks for the input. But to be honest, I'm not convinced. Why spending actions to get creatures back into the sphere when you can cast a spell that does not allow for consecutive saves in the first place (like Hypnotic Pattern)? The forced movement aspect does not really convince me. 30 ft just isn't enough, most monsters can cross that distance and attack in one round.
Well, for one, there aren't many spells that don't allow consecutive saves at part of the game. There's pretty Levitate and Banishment. Hypnotic Pattern doesn't really count, since A) chaff mobs can wake up the other mobs as an action and B) if you want to do damage, you have to break the effect. Don't get me wrong, it's a very good spell, but it's not difficult to find spells even of that level that oftentimes does the job better. Such as Fear.

But as for Watery Sphere:
A) The restraining has an end-of-turn save. So the enemy won't be making the save and just running up and wailing on you.
B) With a minimal amount of common sense, it completely locks out spellcasting. I suppose you could make the argument that you can do verbal components underwater, but that's against RAW and RAI.
C) It's repeatable and reusable. If you fail or an enemy saves, you get to try again. Once your sharpshooting Eldritch Knight completely obliterates one of your held targets, you can move onto the next one. It's also easy on the spell slots.
D) It's 30 feet of multiple-target forced movement. That kind of forced movement (both the distance or number of targets) is surprisingly rare in 5E D&D. Which is understandable, since 5E D&D also publishes a lot of killer zone effects balanced around the foe getting a chance to bodily escape.

Watery Sphere's only real failing is its size limitations and targeting STR saves. It's not the perfect 4th-level spell, but it holds its own against heavy-hitters like Resilient Sphere and Polymorph and Black Tentacles and Banishment.

Well, you still need to hit. Against AC 19 assuming a reasonable level, the spell has a 40% chance to do nothing.
In my defense, dragons have huge amounts of AC for their CR. Aside from the Iron Golem, you generally only see 19 AC on CR 20+ creatures. Considering the only alternative is to try to punch through their legendary resistance or target a check, I'll take it.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
That is not how "specific overrides general" works. The air genasi ability that says "You can hold your breath indefinitely while you’re not incapacitated," overrides the general rule about how long you can hold your breath. Nothing in polymorph says anything at all about the rules of holding your breath. There is no specific exception over riding the rules on suffocation. They are simply two different things happening at the same time: the gold fish running out of air, and the goldfish turning back into a monster.

I understand that from a game balance point of view, that is effectively making a 4th level "save or die in 6 rounds" spell. But that is on par with spells like sleep, hold person, hypnotic pattern, banishment etc. 5e combats do not last more than 4 rounds in almost any case, so a spell that kills something after six rounds... basically saves its life for two extra rounds!

So to your point, any person that is polymorphed into a mouse, dies, then comes back to life because the damage didn't exceed their original total has however many rounds to breach the bag because they exceed the cubic feet limitation unless they are size small. Since they exceed the limitations of the bag, it's going to happen instantaneously or at the most one round later.

The major benefit of the bag of holding is reducing encumbrance of whatever is in the bag to 15lbs so you can carry it. It's not really about putting people in it to kill them, however cool that would be.

Be well.
KB

PS. The "specific" vs. "general" argument is moot because I was talking about your original premise of comparing the effects of a 9th level spell, (power word kill) to general suffocation. By itself that comparison doesn't stand up to scrutiny and shouldn't.
 

momosh666

First Post
Dipping my toe in a wizard build

Just started playing 5ed a couple months ago (before 2nd) our usual magic user left the group. Having spent the last few days reading the guide and thread I decided to give it a go and DM agreed for me to do a freaky friday between my current Dwarf Barbarian Lv2 and to-be Wizard Lv2.

Appreciate your thoughts / critique on build as this will be first time for me in 5th.

Tormod the Sly - Variant Human - Wizard Level 2
STR8 | DEX 14 | CON 16 | INT 16 | WIS 10 | CHA 8
Feat - Alert (driving initiative
Arcane tradition Illusion

Spells Lv0
Mage hand
Minor illiusion
Fire Bolt
Light

Spells Lv1
Mage armor
Shield
Sleep
Magic missile
Fog Cloud
--all prepared --
Find familiar
Detect magic
Identify
-- all unprepared --

Doubts I have at the moment are
a) DEX12 & WIS 12 vs current higher Dex DEX
b) remove magic missile to get additional buff /debuff - if so which one? Is there substantial benefit in this build to keep magic missile vs just having fire bolt cantrip
c) keep identify?

There might still be more wrong with the build so please shout :)
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
I don't think Treeantmonk intends this thread to offer specific build feedback.

This thread is about the guide.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

TheRealistKirby

First Post
Hey just wanted to let you guys know (since I couldn't find it said anywhere in the thread) Xanathar's Guide reworded a few spells that appeared in other places (ee) and since it's the newest print, it is the accepted version of these spells. It doesn't change a lot, but it does mean that flaming sphere and pyrotechnics do NOT work together anymore,since pyrotechnics is only able to target NONmagical flame. This change should lower the rating of both spells.
 

MooreVol

Explorer
It doesn't change a lot, but it does mean that flaming sphere and pyrotechnics do NOT work together anymore,since pyrotechnics is only able to target NONmagical flame. This change should lower the rating of both spells.

Maybe it makes them slightly less useful, but Flaming Sphere "ignites flammable objects not being worn or carried" so as long as it's not in an area where nothing can catch on fire... Should still work in most outdoor environments, inside buildings with any wooden parts, caverns with moss or fungi or lichens, and so forth. There is probably something flammable in most environments (except maybe the artic and certain very clean dungeons with no detritus or wooden frames).

But you'll usually know ahead of time what kind of environment you'll be in and so you'll be able to prepare accordingly. I dunno. I guess they are less useful, but they're not totally nerfed.
 

Stormbrooke

First Post
The real value of Glyph of Warding is not as a trap but as a buff spell that duplicates your concentration. Place a buff spell that requires concentration and has a long duration into the glyph and have you or an ally set it off. The hour casting time and 100 gp cost will limit it's use to only a few situations but when you can use it it's worth it.

As written, when you take damage there is no concentration check either, the ward maintains the concentration for the duration of the spell.

It makes the decision to take a short rest more interesting, do you benefit from resting or do you cast Glyph of Warding instead?
 
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Unless you're cheesing extra spell slots with Tome of the Stilled Tongue / Spell Gem abuse, it's surprisingly difficult to use Glyph of Warding. Pretty much the only buff out of the PHB that it's really good for is Stoneskin. Granted, that's a VERY good use (game-changing, really) but the combination of casting time and spell duration shuts out a lot of buffs. That said, it's a pretty overpowered combination and I wouldn't be springing it on all but the most killer DMs.
 

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