D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[metaridley18]

I haven't run detailed numbers, but I think the new cantrips give pretty decent reason to attack with a melee weapon. They upgrade as you level and gain the Int bonus to boot at lvl 14. However, since WotC clearly added this for bladesingers, tricksters, and knights to boost damage in melee, I really wonder why Bladesingers get Extra Attack and not a bonus action attack when casting a cantrips....

Obviously casting a spell will usually be a better choice, but sometimes you don't need to.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

I really wonder why Bladesingers get Extra Attack and not a bonus action attack when casting a cantrips.....

This is indeed a good question.

Extra attack is the only offensive boost a Bladesinger gets until level 14, and if they use one of the melee cantrips, they lose it. Since you mention it, giving the Bladesinger War Casting (like the Eldritch Knight) would be WAY more effective AND interesting than extra attack.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

This is indeed a good question.

Extra attack is the only offensive boost a Bladesinger gets until level 14, and if they use one of the melee cantrips, they lose it. Since you mention it, giving the Bladesinger War Casting (like the Eldritch Knight) would be WAY more effective AND interesting than extra attack.

Probably because prime casters are intended to suffer a slight penalty to their basic attack routine damage (cantrips vs melee attack routines) in exchange for their versatility. The Bladesinger remains a prime caster whereas the Eldritch Knight remains a fighter.

 

[Celtavian]

I haven't run detailed numbers, but I think the new cantrips give pretty decent reason to attack with a melee weapon. They upgrade as you level and gain the Int bonus to boot at lvl 14. However, since WotC clearly added this for bladesingers, tricksters, and knights to boost damage in melee, I really wonder why Bladesingers get Extra Attack and not a bonus action attack when casting a cantrips....

Obviously casting a spell will usually be a better choice, but sometimes you don't need to.

Do those cantrips do enough damage to justify entering melee? I'm not confident they do.

 

[CapnZapp]

Do those cantrips do enough damage to justify entering melee? I'm not confident they do.

You mean compared to a "regular" cantrip? Good question.

For a "melee build" the analysis should look better, since you would enter melee anyways.

But is there a class in the game that a) is built for melee b) gets these cantrips but c) doesn't get Extra Attack (which the cantrips don't stack with).

As I see it, that leaves Cleric and Rogue?

 

[Bolares]

You mean compared to a "regular" cantrip? Good question.

For a "melee build" the analysis should look better, since you would enter melee anyways.

But is there a class in the game that a) is built for melee b) gets these cantrips but c) doesn't get Extra Attack (which the cantrips don't stack with).

As I see it, that leaves Cleric and Rogue?

Those cantrips are for the wizards, sorcerers and warlocks lists

 

[CapnZapp]

Those cantrips are for the wizards, sorcerers and warlocks lists

Yes, but that's a very limited answer, that does not account for multiclassing.

 

[Bolares]

Yes, but that's a very limited answer, that does not account for multiclassing.

I didn't know you were looking for a multiclassing option. But looking to your question, there is no class that is built for melee and don't get extra attacks. For me, the best use of the cantrip would be in a multiclass of an Abjurer Wizard (to get the defensive ward) or bladesinger (same reason) with an Eldritch knight, so you can use the war magic

 

[Celtavian]

You mean compared to a "regular" cantrip? Good question.

For a "melee build" the analysis should look better, since you would enter melee anyways.

But is there a class in the game that a) is built for melee b) gets these cantrips but c) doesn't get Extra Attack (which the cantrips don't stack with).

As I see it, that leaves Cleric and Rogue?

You figure you hit with a melee attack using a 1d8 rapier. Let's say 11th level using point buy and a high elf giving you a 18 dex and 19 intel. So the damage would be 1d8+4 plus 2d8+4 for 21 points of damage if you hit compared to fire bolt for 16 points of damage. This is about 25% higher than a standard caster with no boost to damage. But far behind warlocks with eldritch blast, about comparable to an evoker wizard, dragon sorcerers, and way behind 11th level martials, especially ranged and great weapon users. And it requires you enter melee combat range with no quick way to move back out.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Probably because prime casters are intended to suffer a slight penalty to their basic attack routine damage (cantrips vs melee attack routines) in exchange for their versatility. The Bladesinger remains a prime caster whereas the Eldritch Knight remains a fighter.

I'm going to start with a disclaimer, because the rest of my post is going to sound like I think the Bladesinger should be more powerful, but understand I am talking about offensive capability. They gave the Bladesinger lots of great abilities, my concern is not that they didn't give the bladesinger enough, my concern is that they skewed the abilities towards defensive abilities, and all but ignored providing offensive ones. IMO the bladesinger becomes not offensively potent enough and TOO defensively potent to properly represent the concept of a bladesinger.

I agree with your premise, but I don't think the actuality ends up being a "slight" penalty.

Let's first look at level 3 and compare the offensive capabilities of the EK and the Bladesinger. I will only list capabilities the other does not receive.

Eldritch Knight
1) Fighting style
2) Ability to use two handed weapons
3) Action surge
Unlikely any self buff at this level will be offensive

The Bladesinger gets
Possible offensive self buff: magic weapon spell (+1 to hit/damage)

This is a pretty big divide. Let's skip ahead to level 11, does the bladesinger close the (rather large) gap? I will only list offensive capabilities gained since level 3

Eldritch Knight
1) War casting
2) Extra feat or ability increase
3) 1 extra attack over bladesinger
4) Ability to attack in same round as using cantrip
5) Saving throw debuff on creatures hit with attacks
Possible offensive self buff: Magic weapon (+1 to hit/damage)

Bladesinger
Possible offensive self buff: Haste (extra action/round)

The gap did not decrease, it increased. Consider that Haste will probably give these characters the same # of attacks per round, but the EK has all those other offensive abilities stacked on top of those attacks and the bladesinger actually had to give up his one offensive boost (magic weapon) in order to concentrate on Haste.

I will note that this is a smaller problem with other primary casters who can do melee like Clerics, because the cleric spell list is more centered on the concept of the caster entering melee so you see some show-stopper spells like Spirit Guardians (BTW was just thinking what a combo Spirit Guardians and Booming Blade would be...) and Spiritual Weapon. Wizards simply don't have a large number of spells that buff melee capability. Haste is probably going to be your best option right through most of your career.

The divide in melee offensive capability should exist, I just think it's too wide a gap.