Rhogar_Rarr
First Post
You're thinking of a different feat.
Heavily Armored-Gives prof. in heavy armor.
Heavy Armor Master-Reduces all non-magical bludgeoning, piercing, slashing damage by 3.
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e
- Thread starter Treantmonklvl20
- Start date
You're thinking of a different feat.
Heavily Armored-Gives prof. in heavy armor.
Heavy Armor Master-Reduces all non-magical bludgeoning, piercing, slashing damage by 3.
Motorskills
Explorer
Treantmonk's suggestion for Cleric 1 / Wizard X is interesting, he favours the Knowledge domain, with Life as an also-ran. I see that Wizard build as being a party-useful character with Knowledge and (likely) Divination school.
Not sure if the Sage background would complement that or be too duplicative. Thoughts?
He suggests high INT and CON, with as good Dex as possible, with possibly Resilient (CON) as the chosen feat for Variant Human.
That would allow (using Point Buy):
Int 15 +1 = 16
Con 15 +0 +Resilient = 16
Wis 13 +1 = 14
Dex 12
Str 8
Cha 8
Decent INT and CON,
Minimum Wisdom for the multi-class, raised to receive a stat bonus
Moderate Dex
Strength and Cha as dump stats
While the Guidance cantrip and the bennies from the Knowledge domain are great, I also see scale mail and shield being a driving factor here, increasing survivability considerably at low level.
But that did get me thinking, does a Cleric 1 get a spellbook and spells when he multi-classes to Cleric 1 / Wizard 1?
Not sure if the Sage background would complement that or be too duplicative. Thoughts?
He suggests high INT and CON, with as good Dex as possible, with possibly Resilient (CON) as the chosen feat for Variant Human.
That would allow (using Point Buy):
Int 15 +1 = 16
Con 15 +0 +Resilient = 16
Wis 13 +1 = 14
Dex 12
Str 8
Cha 8
Decent INT and CON,
Minimum Wisdom for the multi-class, raised to receive a stat bonus
Moderate Dex
Strength and Cha as dump stats
While the Guidance cantrip and the bennies from the Knowledge domain are great, I also see scale mail and shield being a driving factor here, increasing survivability considerably at low level.
But that did get me thinking, does a Cleric 1 get a spellbook and spells when he multi-classes to Cleric 1 / Wizard 1?
CapnZapp
Legend
Ah, Thx.
Haven't checked the details, assumed you needed heavy armor proficiency for a feat named "heavy armor something", glad I'm wrong! ☺
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
You do need heavy armor proficiency as a prerequisite for the feat. You get the proficiency from Life Cleric at level 1, and the variant human feat then gives you +1 Str and some DR on top.
Referring to the Bladesinger subclass option specifically I've run a lot of numbers in consideration for my next character build and I honestly feel like the choice is not poor at all from a damage or survival standpoint (granted, you will have less hp than a fighter or Barbarian). Overall I've been extremely impressed with 5th editions ability to keep damage pretty normalized over time if you build for optimum damage output across different class choices.
The way I personally plan on approaching the Bladesinger:
Race: Eladrin (as per the DMG, mostly for flavor, though I consider Misty Step 1/short rest a pretty major boon).
Class: Pure wizard 1-x (we start at 1st)
Stats: DEX 16, INT 16
Cantrips at 1st: Green Flame Blade, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion (debating thundering blade or sword burst, but not entirely positive there).
Spells at 1st: 1 - Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Ice Knife, Mage Armor, Shield, Sleep
Basic approach 1: (My numbers assume hits, I haven't applied the sliding scale math for misses and advantage)
Melee single target - Dual wield short swords (2d6+3, 5-15, avg DPR 10)
Ranged single target - Long bow (1d8+3, 4-11, avg DPR 7.5) <Note: long bow remains better than Firebolt>
Basic approach 2:
Melee single target - Dual wield short swords (2d6+3, 5-15, avg DPR 10)
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade (1d8+6, 8-14, avg DPR 10.5) <Note: familiar can push advantage on GFB>
Ranged single target - Long bow (1d8+3, 4-11, avg DPR 7.5)
Basic approach at 3:
Cast and maintain Flaming Sphere (2nd level) (2d6 fire, 2-12, avg DPR 7) <Note: This is when wasting your bonus action on TWF loses strength>
Melee single target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (1d8+3+2d6, 6-23, avg DPR: 14.5)
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (1d8+6+2d6, 9-26, avg DPR: 17.5)
Ranged single target - Long bow (1d8+3, 4-11, avg DPR 7.5)
4th level feat choice: Elemental Affinity (fire) Increases DPR by [.166 (per d6) | .125 (per d8) | .1 (per d10)] of fire damage and ignores fire resistance (1s count as 2s on dice) or possible War Caster
At 5th:
Either cast and maintain Melf's Minute Meteors or Flaming Sphere (3rd level) depending on situation.
Melee single target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (2d8+3+3d6, 8-37, avg DPR: 22.50) normal
Melee single target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (2d8+3+3d6, 11-37, avg DPR: 23.125) Affinity
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (3d8+6+3d6, 12-48, avg DPR: 30.00) normal
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (3d8+6+3d6, 17-48, avg DPR: 30.755) Affinity
Ranged single target - Long bow (1d8+3, 4-11, avg DPR 7.5) <Note: You kinda suck at range at 5 without burning spell slots, this is the one level FB would be stronger>
At 6th: (I'm going to toss some numbers here just for comparison)
Dual wield short swords (3 attacks): (3d6+6, 9-24, avg DPR: 16.50)
Dual wield rapiers (req feat, 3 attacks): (3d8+6, 9-30, avg DPR: 19.5)
Melee single target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (2d8+3+3d6, 8-37, avg DPR: 22.5) normal
Melee single target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (2d8+3+3d6, 11-37, avg DPR: 23.125) Affinity
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (3d8+6+3d6, 12-48, avg DPR: 30.00) normal
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (3d8+6+3d6, 17-48, avg DPR: 30.755) Affinity
Ranged single target - Long bow (2d8+6, 8-22, avg DPR 15.0)
Ranged single target - Fire Bolt (2d10, 2-20, avg DPR 11.0)
Ranged single target - Fire Bolt (2d10, 4-20, avg DPR 11.20) <note: with elemental adept (fire)>
I think the biggest concern with bladesinger is getting target fixated on that extra attack at 6th. I feel like there's absolutely no value in that feature unless you're in the super niche situation of spellcaster assassination/lockdown (i.e. drop a silence and now you outclass the enemy caster, or globe of invuln, or something similar). At no point is that extra attack stronger than GFB used at the same level (unless of course you end up with a +3 sword or something, these assumptions are for low magic campaigns).
While dipping into paladin does give you higher spike potential via Divine Smite, I hate that you can toss all of your resources in a round or two. Fighter is similar with Action surge, which is absolutely awesome 99% of the time.
Personally I prefer the idea of dumping (1d8+3[weapon])+(1d8+3d6[fire]) fire every round single target, scaling more multi-target for up to 10 rounds of combat. Shield and absorb elements should give you the staying power you need. Form an unholy pact with your cleric (if you have one) and get Warding bond up for even more fun. You always have the option of tossing a mean fireball or Melf's Minute if that's in your interest.
Note: I would personally suggest dumping counterspells like crazy as well, but my group's DM has politely asked that I not focus 100% on shutting down enemy spellcasters.
You also have an AC of 16 at 1 (mage armor), 18/19 at 2 (studded or mage armor), scaling with gear (+2 bracers armor, +2 if you get warding bond, etc) with the spike potential of +5 from shield for a round.
I personally don't see any weakness in damage output, or survival really except for the lack of HP. But if you take a big hit just misty step/ddoor and get the eff out of dodge. Fighters and paladins don't have that option. Hell, later on you can contigency ddoor or teleport if you don't like getting beat up. I just don't believe the build is weak, and I don't think dips are worth it overall until at best level 7 or 8, but I wouldn't give up spell and feat progression for a very minor gain in potential spike. IMO that's giving up 10d6 of flaming sphere damage over 10 rounds.
I think much more offensive bonuses built into the subclass would actually be OP as heck. And that DPR really isn't terrible, especially for a character that can still fireball, mirror image, teleport, and ddoor on their normal schedule.
Note: I also removed my chart because its just not accurate ATM.
The way I personally plan on approaching the Bladesinger:
Race: Eladrin (as per the DMG, mostly for flavor, though I consider Misty Step 1/short rest a pretty major boon).
Class: Pure wizard 1-x (we start at 1st)
Stats: DEX 16, INT 16
Cantrips at 1st: Green Flame Blade, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion (debating thundering blade or sword burst, but not entirely positive there).
Spells at 1st: 1 - Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Ice Knife, Mage Armor, Shield, Sleep
Basic approach 1: (My numbers assume hits, I haven't applied the sliding scale math for misses and advantage)
Melee single target - Dual wield short swords (2d6+3, 5-15, avg DPR 10)
Ranged single target - Long bow (1d8+3, 4-11, avg DPR 7.5) <Note: long bow remains better than Firebolt>
Basic approach 2:
Melee single target - Dual wield short swords (2d6+3, 5-15, avg DPR 10)
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade (1d8+6, 8-14, avg DPR 10.5) <Note: familiar can push advantage on GFB>
Ranged single target - Long bow (1d8+3, 4-11, avg DPR 7.5)
Basic approach at 3:
Cast and maintain Flaming Sphere (2nd level) (2d6 fire, 2-12, avg DPR 7) <Note: This is when wasting your bonus action on TWF loses strength>
Melee single target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (1d8+3+2d6, 6-23, avg DPR: 14.5)
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (1d8+6+2d6, 9-26, avg DPR: 17.5)
Ranged single target - Long bow (1d8+3, 4-11, avg DPR 7.5)
4th level feat choice: Elemental Affinity (fire) Increases DPR by [.166 (per d6) | .125 (per d8) | .1 (per d10)] of fire damage and ignores fire resistance (1s count as 2s on dice) or possible War Caster
Thank you TwoSix for correcting my math. I was over-valuing Elemental Affinity. I think its still super viable especially given the frequency of fire resistance, but it really doesn't change the average damage curve in a major way. I still think it feels good regarding minimums.
At 5th:
Either cast and maintain Melf's Minute Meteors or Flaming Sphere (3rd level) depending on situation.
Melee single target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (2d8+3+3d6, 8-37, avg DPR: 22.50) normal
Melee single target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (2d8+3+3d6, 11-37, avg DPR: 23.125) Affinity
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (3d8+6+3d6, 12-48, avg DPR: 30.00) normal
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (3d8+6+3d6, 17-48, avg DPR: 30.755) Affinity
Ranged single target - Long bow (1d8+3, 4-11, avg DPR 7.5) <Note: You kinda suck at range at 5 without burning spell slots, this is the one level FB would be stronger>
At 6th: (I'm going to toss some numbers here just for comparison)
Dual wield short swords (3 attacks): (3d6+6, 9-24, avg DPR: 16.50)
Dual wield rapiers (req feat, 3 attacks): (3d8+6, 9-30, avg DPR: 19.5)
Melee single target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (2d8+3+3d6, 8-37, avg DPR: 22.5) normal
Melee single target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (2d8+3+3d6, 11-37, avg DPR: 23.125) Affinity
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (3d8+6+3d6, 12-48, avg DPR: 30.00) normal
Melee multi-target - Rapier, Green Flame Blade, bonus action to ram with sphere (3d8+6+3d6, 17-48, avg DPR: 30.755) Affinity
Ranged single target - Long bow (2d8+6, 8-22, avg DPR 15.0)
Ranged single target - Fire Bolt (2d10, 2-20, avg DPR 11.0)
Ranged single target - Fire Bolt (2d10, 4-20, avg DPR 11.20) <note: with elemental adept (fire)>
I think the biggest concern with bladesinger is getting target fixated on that extra attack at 6th. I feel like there's absolutely no value in that feature unless you're in the super niche situation of spellcaster assassination/lockdown (i.e. drop a silence and now you outclass the enemy caster, or globe of invuln, or something similar). At no point is that extra attack stronger than GFB used at the same level (unless of course you end up with a +3 sword or something, these assumptions are for low magic campaigns).
While dipping into paladin does give you higher spike potential via Divine Smite, I hate that you can toss all of your resources in a round or two. Fighter is similar with Action surge, which is absolutely awesome 99% of the time.
Personally I prefer the idea of dumping (1d8+3[weapon])+(1d8+3d6[fire]) fire every round single target, scaling more multi-target for up to 10 rounds of combat. Shield and absorb elements should give you the staying power you need. Form an unholy pact with your cleric (if you have one) and get Warding bond up for even more fun. You always have the option of tossing a mean fireball or Melf's Minute if that's in your interest.
Note: I would personally suggest dumping counterspells like crazy as well, but my group's DM has politely asked that I not focus 100% on shutting down enemy spellcasters.
You also have an AC of 16 at 1 (mage armor), 18/19 at 2 (studded or mage armor), scaling with gear (+2 bracers armor, +2 if you get warding bond, etc) with the spike potential of +5 from shield for a round.
I personally don't see any weakness in damage output, or survival really except for the lack of HP. But if you take a big hit just misty step/ddoor and get the eff out of dodge. Fighters and paladins don't have that option. Hell, later on you can contigency ddoor or teleport if you don't like getting beat up. I just don't believe the build is weak, and I don't think dips are worth it overall until at best level 7 or 8, but I wouldn't give up spell and feat progression for a very minor gain in potential spike. IMO that's giving up 10d6 of flaming sphere damage over 10 rounds.
I think much more offensive bonuses built into the subclass would actually be OP as heck. And that DPR really isn't terrible, especially for a character that can still fireball, mirror image, teleport, and ddoor on their normal schedule.
Note: I also removed my chart because its just not accurate ATM.
Last edited:
Oath of Vengeance Paladins can misty step as can eldritch knight fighters. Then again paladins don't usually need that option. With their Vow and Divine Smite, they can usually devastate what they are fighting. Their protection aura helps them resist save attacks much easier than a bladesinger. The Bladesinger isn't an unplayable option. It just isn't ideal. Other wizard archetypes can do more without being a drain on healing resources because they don't enter battle. Paladins and Fighters are built to enter battle with more hit points, a fighting style, and paladin saves are absolutely amazing as you gain in level making them extremely durable.
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
Most of your math looks good, but this is incorrect. Elemental Affinity only increases damage by 1/N per die, where N is the size of the die (i.e., a d6 grants a 0.166 damage increase per die with that feat).
I'm not by any means saying the Bladesinger is equivalent to a paladin overall. I more mean to say if you need a full wizard in your party and want to melee you can do so successfully and that Bladesinger itself doesn't really make any gains by dipping into other classes. Granted, I'm not a fan of 5th multiclassing overall. My party will already have a Paladin (vengeance specifically), so my Bladesinger will also have that aura. I'll keep notes and see how they perform near each other. I don't really buy that other Wizard types are stronger or can do more, different sure, but I don't quite agree with more. Diviners replacing two rolls per day is nice, but hardly game breaking, and Evokers kind of bore me. I wanted Conjurer to rock, but there just aren't a lot of great conjuration options IMO.
And again, Paladins can do crazy spike damage for a few rounds. My proposed build is conservative base using 1 spell slot per encounter. There's the potential for absorb elements spike damage (which you could push yourself by standing near your orb if you're crazy).
Also assuming similar build priorities (STR>CHA>CON) for a Paladin the paladin will have 4+level*2 more hp than the wizard (unless hill dwarf, or dumping cha for con). It's definitely a difference, especially at early levels, but it normalizes over time to being basically irrelevant. And hopefully if there's both a paladin and a weird looking Wizard in melee the paladin will eat attacks first.
I have to politely disagree that my math is wrong. According to how the dice actually work and computing averages from those numbers:
Normal d6 - range 1-6 = 1+2+3+4+5+6 = 21 / number in range (6) = 21/6 = 3.5 average
Affinity d6 - range 2-6 = 2+3+4+5+6 = 20 / number in range (5) = 20/4 = 4.0 average
Normal d8 - range 1-8 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8 = 36 / number in range (8) = 36/8 = 4.5 average
Affinity d8- range 2-8 = 2+3+4+5+6+7+8 = 35 / number in range (7) = 35/7 = 5 average
I think overall mathematically you're likely correct, but as far as how dice actually fall my math is correct.
Last edited:
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
The problem with your math is that you're ignoring the 1. The 1 can still be rolled, remember. It just becomes a 2. The math you're doing above is correct for the case of "reroll all 1s", but not for "1 becomes 2". Your math should look like this:
Normal d6 - range 1-6 = 1+2+3+4+5+6 = 21 / number in range (6) = 21/6 = 3.50 average
Affinity d6 - range 1-6 (1 becomes 2) = 2+2+3+4+5+6 = 22 / number in range (6) = 22/6 = 3.67 average
Normal d8 - range 1-8 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8 = 36 / number in range (8) = 36/8 = 4.50 average
Affinity d8- range 1-8 (1 becomes 2) = 2+2+3+4+5+6+7+8 = 37 / number in range (8) = 37/8 = 4.63 average
Protip: If the math you're doing isn't matching the reality of the situation, you're doing the math wrong.
Oh no, that makes perfect sense. I stand corrected in my weighting of the value of the Elemental Affinity (fire) feat. That may edge me closer towards Warcaster. Thank you for the clarification. I'll rerun my numbers and adjust the values in my initial post.
Similar Threads
