True 20 - Who here has played it, and what was your experience?

[Hjorimir]

I consider that kind of a virtue, to be honest; the old version with the experience penalties had exactly the objection I'm having here; that it ended up being a club for what the GM judged should be the PC's behavior.

But see, I'm not sure something to mechancially prod players on characterization _belongs_ in a game; often all it does is give the GM a club to place his view of the character and what it means in the game above the player's, and I no longer consider that a virtue. That's why I compared it to social engineering experience systems (which reward the player for doing things as the GM approves with more in-game power).

I'm confused; True20's Conviction uses a reward system; you reward Conviction, you never take any away. It is a carrot, not a stick.

 

[The_Gut]

I'm confused; True20's Conviction uses a reward system; you reward Conviction, you never take any away. It is a carrot, not a stick.

A common view - and one that isn't that bad - is that a carrot system is just a club by a different name. This way of viewing it is that, if you don't do something that the GM approves of, you don't get conviction, as a "punishment". Its a semantics argument really. If you do something the GM approves of, you get conviction. Its the same thing, just different names.

 

[Jim Hague]

A common view - and one that isn't that bad - is that a carrot system is just a club by a different name. This way of viewing it is that, if you don't do something that the GM approves of, you don't get conviction, as a "punishment". Its a semantics argument really. If you do something the GM approves of, you get conviction. Its the same thing, just different names.

Wow. Uh, no. Lack of reward does not equal punishment. That's a logical fallacy.

 

[Aussiegamer]

for me it is the same as well.


Player does something
Player: do I get the carrot?
GM: NO
Player: why?
GM: I did not think you deserved it.
player annoyied!


Seems to be a form of punishment!

 

[The_Gut]

Wow. Uh, no. Lack of reward does not equal punishment. That's a logical fallacy.

I didn't say that I fully agree with it (though I'm not sure I fully disagree with it either). I'm simply saying that its a very common viewpoint (At least among MMORPG's.... I'm not sure about "true" rpg players....)

 

[Hjorimir]

I find it terribly sad that we've 'progressed' to the point of feeling punished because we were not rewarded.

Narcissism is getting out of hand.

 

[iwatt]

Seems to be a form of punishment!

We seem to have very different ideas on what can be considered punishment I guess.

 

[The_Gut]

We seem to have very different ideas on what can be considered punishment I guess.

Try it this way around then (to play the devils advocate)

Mom: Keep your room clean for a week and we will go to the lake on Saturday.
Child: Okay!

(Child keeps toys in toybox, books on shelf, etc, but fails to make the bed a couple of times during the week)

Mom: Nope, we aren't going to the lake - you didn't make your bed tues or thurs! (Or, in an extreme case - "You didn't pick up the dirty towels in the bathroom" which doesn't have a thing to do with keeping your room clean)

So, was it a punishment, or a reward?

(One could argue its a salary, I suppose)

If criteria are set to gain something, I'm not sure it counts as a reward, or carrot. A reward should be something that is received for going above and beyond mere criteria. Getting X for meeting Y criteria seems like a salary.

 

[Jim Hague]

Try it this way around then (to play the devils advocate)

Mom: Keep your room clean for a week and we will go to the lake on Saturday.
Child: Okay!

(Child keeps toys in toybox, books on shelf, etc, but fails to make the bed a couple of times during the week)

Mom: Nope, we aren't going to the lake - you didn't make your bed tues or thurs! (Or, in an extreme case - "You didn't pick up the dirty towels in the bathroom" which doesn't have a thing to do with keeping your room clean)

So, was it a punishment, or a reward?

(One could argue its a salary, I suppose)

If criteria are set to gain something, I'm not sure it counts as a reward, or carrot. A reward should be something that is received for going above and beyond mere criteria. Getting X for meeting Y criteria seems like a salary.

Ah, but you fail to grasp the important bit - making the bed is part of the agreement, implicitly. One party didn't do that, therefore, no reward. Again - lack of reward is not punishment. You're arguing that a lack of something is a punishment in of itself; it isn't. Punishment requires a punitive element missing from your argument.

Now, extending this to True20 - if the player played their Virtue and Vice, and the GM withheld Conviction, that isn't punishment - it's a lack of reward, and a mistake on the GM's part. If the GM did it as a punitive measure, then you're talking punishment. Huge difference.

Likewise, the Conviction reward is for playing your character. Play well, gain Conviction to do cool stuff. Be boring, no reward...but that in of itself isn't a punishment, since it lacks the punitive element. Do something the GM doesn't like and the GM takes away Conviction (something not supported by the rules, by the way), then that's punitive, therefore punishment.

 

[Hjorimir]

I cannot help but notice in the example that the one who might feel punished is a young child that still has to be told to keep his room clean.