D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[HammerMan]

The focus should be on:

• which solutions work for an individual table;
• if a solution doesn’t work for your table, can it be tweaked so that it does;
• understanding why certain solutions don’t work for certain tables and what alternatives exist (in my games, the party is often fighting fairly unsophisticated monsters, so monsters using dispels and counterspells are unlikely);
• identifying potential problems ahead of time and communicating them to your players.

the problem I find is when I say I have trouble (and lack of time now as an adult) to balance and work out house rules, and would like WotC to publish something... the post in indagated with people yelling it will ruin the game.

 

[Oofta]

the problem I find is when I say I have trouble (and lack of time now as an adult) to balance and work out house rules, and would like WotC to publish something... the post in indagated with people yelling it will ruin the game.

AKA, saying "I disagree with your solution"?

 

[DND_Reborn]

I'm still happy that during my second session ever as a Half-Elf Battle Master, I took out seven Drow assassins with one attack (Combat Maneuver: Sweeping Attacking) and it was hella cool.

How is that even possible?

 

[Oofta]

Put me down as "I don't see a problem". I do think the game works better if you have more encounters, I usually get in 4-10 between long rests. It may not be official guideline, but it sure seems like the game is balanced around that. The designers had to make some assumptions along the way. I use the gritty rest rules when I DM, but I've played up to 20th with a fighter when we did not and I never saw an issue.

But I don't really care if my PC plays a different role in the group. If I want a charismatic fighter, I can do that. Grab the right background and don't tank charisma. If I really care use one of my ASIs to either bump up my charisma or, if allowed, take prodigy. As far as "game changing", I simply accept that my PC is not the quarterback. That doesn't mean the quarterback could do much without the rest of the team. Major turning points in games I've been involved with revolve around character decisions and why the do what they do, not how they accomplish it.

Much like @TheSword, I also think a lot of the "major differences" are artificial. No teleport? The campaign scenery and method of achieving a goal will be different. Either the game will focus more on the journey, which can be fun, it will be handwaved, or something in between. If the DM sets up a scenario where the only way out of a collapsing tower is to teleport out, I think that's poor game design. There should always be multiple ways to overcome obstacles.

I said in the other thread, I'll say it again. I think the wizard should be able to do awesome things now and then because my fighter gets to do cool things all the time. I want to play a game where we're emulating a reasonably grounded fantasy novel. Making fighters into yet another supernatural PC or a demi god doesn't do that.

 

[FrozenNorth]

The Exploration Pillar Issues

However, there is another problem, such rules are primarily of interest to people, that are interested in exploration as a primary focus. Many of us are interested in wilderness survival as a complication to a larger story. I am not sure what subsystems would apply in that case.

To build on this further, this requires both the DM and the player to be interested in the Exploration pillar. If only the DM is pushing for it, you end with a great chassis the players don’t interact with unless pushed. If only some of the players, you end up with half-hearted and ineffective mechanics.

 

[Asisreo]

Basing an evaluation of a class on just a few of the potential builds or subclasses is a bad representation of the class as a whole. If a fighter must be a BM, RK, or EK, or they must rely on a CE/SS or GWM build, that doesn't mean that class is good, just that a few options are overly better than others.

Would the same argument not be true for casters? They have a larger array of options, but they rely on their options being effective more than a fighter since a poorly optimized fighter is still relatively consistent.

Strength and athletics are just ability checks, and the Fighter gets no more than any other class. They are worse than casters on the basis of total bonuses, and physical challenges like climbing/Swimming/moving great weight are often the most easily bypassed by spells or imaginative work-arounds.

The bonuses from strength and athletics synergize with an overall class' design in-combat. So while a rogue could theoretically have a high strength/athletics, they practically would be hurting their combat effectiveness by investing in an ability that does nothing for them combat-wise. Casters must invest heavily for them to have as much utility strength-wise. Polymorph ends any concentration-based pre-buff you may have and it costs a 4th-level spell. While Buffing yourself is possible as a caster, you could probably give a greater buff for cheaper by buffing the martial instead, even out-of-combat.

Spells can be very versatile for solving problems, but even if the caster has no spells left or none applicable for the situation, they have just as many options through ability checks and imaginative play as a martial.

This leads into the second point where what you're saying is technically that's true, but only in the sense that the caster and martial had built themselves identically, though it's extremely rare that the ability scores and skills of each classes will be identical. Realistically, a fighter would have +5 to strength, and would be more reliable when breaking, climbing, pushing, or lifting while the wizard would be more reliable with memorization, logic-puzzles, and understanding magic. So they'd be doing two different things.

 

[DND_Reborn]

For @TheSword and others,

The issue with "handwaving" away travel is you basically just destroyed one of the three pillars IME. Sure, the caster can teleport you all, or you can walk, have random encounters, side quests, etc. and depending on how tight the time line is, you might have to make some difficult choices on what you can and can't do during that travel time and still get to where you need to be before the clock runs out. To me the travel, i.e. the "journey" IS a huge part of the adventure, not just the destination...

Otherwise, I agree on much of your thoughts. The social pillars and even exploration pillars rarely carry the same sense of danger as combat does and that's a very valid point. After my deep dive into Feats, I no longer feel fighters need more social or exploration support because A) that isn't their main function and B) they can improve in those pillars by using feats, backgrounds, skill choices, etc.

To the other points I am a big fan of compromise: buff fighters (who IMO should be the best at combat but really aren't or barely so) or reduce non-martials combat ability (slightly), nerf casters (just a wee bit, don't need to go crazy if you don't want to).

Other thoughts for casters is have to branches for them: general and specialist. The general branch can do a lot of stuff, and often, but none of it is very powerful. The specialist can only do a few things, not as often, but man, is their sh!t crazy! FWIW this is what my group is now exploring.

For the people who want superhero D&D all around, build the variant classes to support it.

 

[TheSword]

A further point of discussion. This is the list of fighter from fiction in a different thread. Of the list, few have the kind of supernatural/superhero/“narrative control” that people appear to be advocating for. Where they do have magic it is generally magic to do things that they already have access to. They don’t teleport or fly, etc etc. This list is why a lot of people don’t want to see martials with superhero powers. (And no, tolkeinien elf magic doesn’t resemble D&D magic in its effect.)

Tier 4 - Masters of the World
Fingolfin (Tolkien)
Ecthelion (Tolkien)
Glorfindel (Tolkien)
Gil-Galad (Tolkien)
Icarium (Erikson)
Elric of Melnibone (Moorcock)
Culain Lord of the Lance (Gemmell)
John Carter, Warlord of Barsoom (Burroughs)
Erekose (Moorcock)
Cohen the Barbarian (Pratchett)
Kane (Wagner)
Gilgamesh the King (anon)
Hurin (Tolkien)

Tier 3 - Masters of the Realm
Corwin of Amber (Zelazny)
Conan (Howard)
Al'lan Mandragoran (Jordan)
Aragorn (Tolkien)
Mandorallen (Eddings)
Drizzt Do'Urden (Salvatore)
Croaker (Cook)
Beowulf (Anon)
Adolin Kholin (Sanderson)
Druss the Legend (Gemmell)
Matt Cawthorn (Jordan)
Beren (Tolkien)
Galad Damodred (Jordan)
Achilles (Homer) - moved up
Lancelot du Lac (Anon)
Logen Ninefingers, the Bloody-Nine (Abercrombie)
Hector (Homer)
Richard Rahl (Goodkind)
Kaladin Stormblessed (Sanderson)

Tier 2 - Heroes of the Realm
The Grey Mouser (Leiber)
Robin Hood (Anon)
Morley Dotes (Cook)
Paksenarrion Dorthansdotter (Moon)
Aillas of Troicinet (Vance)
Legolas (Tolkien)
Gimli (Tolkien)
Fafhrd (Leiber) - moved up
Jaime Lannister *uninjured (Martin)
Brienne of Tarth (Martin)
Bard (Tolkien)
Geralt of Rivia (Sapkowski)
Bronn of the Blackwater (Martin)
Little John (Anon)
Joscelin Verreuil (Carey)
Groo the Wanderer (Aragonés and Evanier)
Bragi Ragnarson (Cook)
Boromir (Tolkien)
Carrot Ironfoundersson (Pratchett)
Eowyn (Tolkien)
Domovoi Butler (Colfer)
Sandtiger, Master Sword-Dancer (Roberson)
Del, Sword-singer (Roberson)

Tier 1 - Local Heroes
Jean Tannen (Lynch)
Eomer (Tolkien)
Cugel the Clever (Vance)
Merry (Tolkien)
Samwise the Brave (Tolkien)
Faramir (Tolkien)

 

[TheSword]

For @TheSword and others,

The issue with "handwaving" away travel is you basically just destroyed one of the three pillars IME. Sure, the caster can teleport you all, or you can walk, have random encounters, side quests, etc. and depending on how tight the time line is, you might have to make some difficult choices on what you can and can't do during that travel time and still get to where you need to be before the clock runs out. To me the travel, i.e. the "journey" IS a huge part of the adventure, not just the destination...

I actually don’t see travel as big a part of exploration as much as I see creeping down that 10 foot wide corridor trying to decipher the runes on the wall. Exploration is any time you step into the unknown and try and work out what’s going on.

 

[Weiley31]

How is that even possible?

Druid did something that caused all seven Drow Assassins to go prone and they were all lumped next to each other because we were fighting in an underground tunnel. And then I pretty much Combat Manuevered: Sweeping Attack+Action Surged.

To this day when the DM of our table talks about it, he goes "Yeah he's a Fighter and gets Action Surge to do that kind of crap." and I have the widest smile on my face when he says it.