D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Guest 7034872]

not to ignore the rest of your post but just commenting on this one analogy, bilbo, thorin and gandalf would absolutely not be of the same levels which throws off your point that they're fine not being ballanced because they're not being evaluated on a level playing field like player characters would be judged on especially considering the comparison being made in this thread, throughout The Hobbit bilbo is probably a lv 1 growing to lv 5 rogue, thorin a lv 10-11 fighter and gandalf a lv 15 wizard, approxamately,

Good catch. Yeah, you're surely right about that, but I don't think it throws off my larger point that we needn't have all characters in a party be evenly balanced.

 

[Vaalingrade]

LotR is not a game where Bilbo was trying to have fun though.

 

[Guest 7034872]

LotR is not a game where Bilbo was trying to have fun though.

Of course. I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate here and trying to encourage all of us to spend a bit of energy playing Devil's Advocate against our own strongest opinions.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Devil's Advocate isn't a good thing. I don't know how it became a fun game to play on the internet.

 

[Micah Sweet]

LotR is not a game where Bilbo was trying to have fun though.

Bilbo's player probably did though. The situations most PCs find themselves in are often not fun.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

1. As my disclaimer intimated, it's been my sense that in D&D teamwork counts for more than individual achievement. Bilbo is a weenie compared to Thorin, and let's not even bother making a comparison with Gandalf. So what? He was just the weenie they needed, and it made for a great story. (This point might fit under (2), but I think it merits elaboration.)

Good catch. Yeah, you're surely right about that, but I don't think it throws off my larger point that we needn't have all characters in a party be evenly balanced.

A game is different than a story but I agree that you don't have to have characters be evenly balanced in exactly the same way.

This kind of "contribution" would be great but D&D magic makes this hard.

A high level D&D wizard would just teleport the party to The Lonley Mountain, turn invisibile to spot the weak scale, and teleport out again.

With Gandalf magic you can easily carve out roles and "contributions" for the martials. Someone has to lead you through the wilderness, someone has to fight off things -- magic helps but it does not appear to be something you can just do all the time, etc.

Also weaker characters in stories have plot currency that allows them to circumstantialy shine.

 

[Guest 7034872]

Devil's Advocate isn't a good thing. I don't know how it became a fun game to play on the internet.

??? Why is it not a good thing? If I want to understand people better where I disagree with them, shouldn't I make an effort to get my head inside their most compelling arguments? I mean, in philosophy and law, we do that all the time. We have to.

 

[Vaalingrade]

??? Why is it not a good thing? If I want to understand people better where I disagree with them, shouldn't I make an effort to get my head inside their most compelling arguments? I mean, in philosophy and law, we do that all the time. We have to.

For philosophy and law and debate, you are practicing a certain set of skills with people who are all on the same ground of what you're doing and why.

Playing Devil's advocate is just arguing from a point of view you don't actually have and just serves to muddle the discussion.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

gandalf a lv 15 wizard, approxamately,

If he was a 15th level D&D Wizard he was a pretty big a-hole

Let's see, I could teleport us to the Loney Mountain but let's just see how they do in Mirkwood...

 

[TheSword]

Of course. I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate here and trying to encourage all of us to spend a bit of energy playing Devil's Advocate against our own strongest opinions.

Kudos for trying to get people here to see things from the opposing viewpoint. I fear it’s an uphill battle.

Those who most strongly oppose buffing martials and/or nerfing casters, what do you say are the best reasons for someone to support doing so despite your clear objections? What are their best arguments, in your opinion?

The most convincing argument made is that people who enjoy martials that feel like superheroes and do extraordinary things are entitled to want to play that way. Even if it feels off to me. Self determination should be encouraged where it doesn’t spoil things for other folks.

Secondly, adding these into the game as a subclass takes nothing away from everyone else if it’s an optional rule a-la Tasha. If it isn’t retconning the core base principle of the fighter etc then it can be ignored by those that don’t want it. In other words what’s the harm.