D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Shardstone]

If the subclasses for Barbarian were more mechanically interesting and featured more choice, and if the subclasses for the Fighter had the same flexibility as the Rune Warrior and Battlemaster, this just wouldn't be a problem at all in my opinion.

The only thing missing is agency outside of combat. If Barbarians and Fighters had options in their subclasses that gave them more magic access, be that in spells or raw abilities, or that let them make things happen, such as maybe the Totem Barbarian can invoke the strength of the bear to lift a Gargantuan object or something, then the divide shrinks.

But, all the shenanigan options are locked behind spells and exclusive subclasses. This is because high level D&D just isn't well designed IMO for pure martials. While caster's get to cast Earthquake, the Battlemaster Fighter gets to start combat with 1 superority die if they don't have any. Yes, its a mechanically significant feature for power, but it isn't nearly as fun or interesting to use.

 

[HammerMan]

They can get proficiency Arcana, History etc that Wizards already have. They can muscle in on traditional wizard territory like wizards try and muscle in on Fighter territory.

oh... the fighter can take arcana and that equals what exactly?

(TBH I would worry more about a rogue at level 11 having expertise in arcana and reliable talent... but 1 skill hardly a mage makes.)

 

[TheSword]

oh... the fighter can take arcana and that equals what exactly?

(TBH I would worry more about a rogue at level 11 having expertise in arcana and reliable talent... but 1 skill hardly a mage makes.)

I don’t worry about any of it. It’s all part of the glorious flexibility in creating characters for 5e. It’s all about where you want to put your resources.

 

[Mort]

Magic frequently comes at a cost though, even if it is reliable. Sometimes quick and easy is also dangerous.

5e has (finally) introduced just a a bit of this. Knock being loud, charm spells turning the target hostile etc. But that's about it. 5e magic is expressly NOT dangerous - you know what you're getting when you cast a spell. Sure there are variants, like wild magic. But that's a variant.

Rogues were intended to fill the role of out-of-combat skill monkey while not being quite as effective at combat.

Except rogues are the out of combat skill monkey who are also VERY effective in combat. They are good at both.

If we're talking skills and whatnot, yea I could see some room for improvement I'm just not sure what. Rogues were supposed to be less capable than fighters at combat for niche protection. Then people complained that DMs didn't give rogues advantage every round so the rogue couldn't keep up on damage with the fighter and they got steady shot. When it comes to combat I still think people focus too much on DPR.

But rogues aren't just about DPR in combat! Cunning action (which rogues get nice and early at 2nd level) gives rogues a massive amount of in combat options that really allow them to shine in various situations. Again it shows that it's not THAT hard to give fun, meaningful options without resorting to magic.

Out of combat? If you use feats you can take prodigy to specialize with one of the extra ASIs you get but I don't think we need to turn them into skill monkeys.

Assuming the campaign allows feats and assuming the fighter is willing to sacrifice combat effectiveness to do so - a bit of a big ask for a class that already has to do everything it can to keep up.

It just isn't that hard to give the fighter thematically appropriate non-magic, out of combat stuff. The designers have already taken baby steps by allowing fighter maneuvers that can add to persuasion etc.

 

[Remathilis]

So here is my issue. Part of these posts are that the fighter doesn't get "shenanigans" in out of combat areas the way casters do. Likewise, three l they don't get enough "high level" abilities to keep them on par.

Ok. Let's pretend that a fighter and a wizard who only uses blasting magic are equal at the end of the day. (Big assumption, but let's pretend). The fighter is the equal of the mage in damage per second when averaged.

What high level ability does the fighter get that matches Time Stop? Teleport? Feeblemind? Wish? How do they get up to the creative use of Permanent Image? Dominate Monster? Mordy's Mansion? Foresight? Etherealness? If you include divine magic, what is a fighter doing comparable to Earthquake or Word of Recall or Regeneration?

Ok, maybe it's not fair to compare martial ability to 6th+ level magic. That is supposed to be rare even for casters. Let's go 5th and under. Let's cede the ground of high level shenanigans to casters who only get 1-4 per day.

What does the fighter get that matches scrying? Greater Invisibility? Geas? Stoneshape? Locate Creature? Tongues? Fly? Remove Curse? Pass without Trace? Misty Step? False Life? Fog Cloud? Mage Hand? Prestidigitation? When do they get them? Can a 11th level fighter match a 1st level wizard in shenanigans?

I'm genuinely curious, once combat is ignored, how much "reality shaping" ability a mundane fighter should have. Because I cannot fathom a game where a high level warrior can use an ability they rivals a high (or even medium) level spell when it comes to shenanigans.

 

[HammerMan]

In a different perspective, the wizard player has to keep up with their massive spellbook and pay astute attention to the game and the implications of using spells in the context of the given scenario. That's a mental load not every player wants to engage with.

this is why I think spell casters have it right and martials don't... you nailed it in 1

wizards (with preping spells and having so many options) is the most complex caster... up next is the Druid and cleric (I would put cleric higher then druid but can understand why they may group togather) you have a large list of spells (most likly more then the wizard's spell book) and just as many options at table...

SOrcer and bard are a step down in complexity. They still have the slots to maintain, they still have to know what 20ish spells do and what is the right time to use them, but with spells known they have less then the wizard to keep up...but not much.

Warlock is the simplist caster (still more then fighter and my prefered class) they still know 1 of each 6th-9th level spell and need to juggle it... they still have 2 spell slots per short rest to find the best time for... but they mostly focus on at wills.

for martials we have Barbarians (when do I rage) and rogues (do I use uncanny dodge) then fighter... there is no "More complex" answer.

I am all for keeping the basic classes... I just want non spell caster complex ones too.

 

[HammerMan]

I don’t worry about any of it. It’s all part of the glorious flexibility in creating characters for 5e. It’s all about where you want to put your resources.

unless you want a complex martial character that has the same type of cool options the spell casters have... then your only option is take spellcasting

 

[HammerMan]

5e has (finally) introduced just a a bit of this. Knock being loud, charm spells turning the target hostile etc. But that's about it. 5e magic is expressly NOT dangerous - you know what you're getting when you cast a spell. Sure there are variants, like wild magic. But that's a variant.

2e had haste age you... some spells could kill you for casting them...

 

[Vaalingrade]

So here is my issue. Part of these posts are that the fighter doesn't get "shenanigans" in out of combat areas the way casters do. Likewise, three l they don't get enough "high level" abilities to keep them on par.

Ok. Let's pretend that a fighter and a wizard who only uses blasting magic are equal at the end of the day. (Big assumption, but let's pretend). The fighter is the equal of the mage in damage per second when averaged.

What high level ability does the fighter get that matches Time Stop? Teleport? Feeblemind? Wish? How do they get up to the creative use of Permanent Image? Dominate Monster? Mordy's Mansion? Foresight? Etherealness? If you include divine magic, what is a fighter doing comparable to Earthquake or Word of Recall or Regeneration?

Ok, maybe it's not fair to compare martial ability to 6th+ level magic. That is supposed to be rare even for casters. Let's go 5th and under. Let's cede the ground of high level shenanigans to casters who only get 1-4 per day.

What does the fighter get that matches scrying? Greater Invisibility? Geas? Stoneshape? Locate Creature? Tongues? Fly? Remove Curse? Pass without Trace? Misty Step? False Life? Fog Cloud? Mage Hand? Prestidigitation? When do they get them? Can a 11th level fighter match a 1st level wizard in shenanigans?

I'm genuinely curious, once combat is ignored, how much "reality shaping" ability a mundane fighter should have. Because I cannot fathom a game where a high level warrior can use an ability they rivals a high (or even medium) level spell when it comes to shenanigans.

Just because they can't get everything doesn't mean it's justified to give them nothing.

 

[HammerMan]

I'm genuinely curious, once combat is ignored, how much "reality shaping" ability a mundane fighter should have. Because I cannot fathom a game where a high level warrior can use an ability they rivals a high (or even medium) level spell when it comes to shenanigans.

Once combat is ignored (or just not in a session, there is nothing a fighter brings that any other character can't... rogue at least gets to have some skill things, but even that bards get them too...

in a combat lite game (say strixhaven or wild beyond the witchlight) a bard a wizard, a druid and an artificer will have dozens (hundreds by level 20) of options that a party of 2 fighters a barbarian and a rouge will... and the only thing the 2nd party has over the first is HP.