D&D 5E (2014) Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Mort]

Double post

 

[HammerMan]

But on a better note. They made some deal with Savage Worlds and have seen several Savage Rifts supplements out, which actually aren't too bad. That's likely keeping them afloat.

I love the setting and I kickstarted the savage world stuff but it is still in a box... i have not played it

 

[Umbran]

But does it really not reflect reality?

You are assigning motives to people you do not know, and haven't spoken to on the matter, so I question that it reflects reality, yes.

A ton of design choices were expressly to attract specific demographics and deflect certain criticisms and a lot of design evaporated in the playtest, which was selective of those self-same demographics.

So, there's a subtle difference between "satisfy" and "appease" and you choose one over the other for no clear reason. I mean, it is not like Aldarc saying it makes it true. You make it sound like making a thing that people like is... bad. They should have made design choices discarding feedback? They should make a product and not consider attracting customers?

It is very easy to not like a thing, and accuse the makers of various and sundry personal failings, because this is the internet, and they aren't here - they are these distant things we don't treat with respect because we are cheesed off. It feels good to make it something we can look down on them for. Which is a very good reason to question when we do it.

 

[Mort]

I love the setting and I kickstarted the savage world stuff but it is still in a box... i have not played it

A friend loves it and has actually run adventures with it as several conventions (including Gen Con - though I think not 2021). It was fun when I played it for a bit.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You make it sound like making a thing that people like is... bad.

That's not the issue. The excluding a lot of other people to focus on what those people like it the problem.

 

[tetrasodium]

I love how you just somehow made a great weapon fighter great axe and confused it with a bow...

someone did it up thread, I think powergamer but I can't tag him for some reason.

3 attacks at 11th level 1d8+2 if all hit (remember lower to hit too) is 3d8+6. If we compare this to a d8 cantrip (more likely to hit being a prime stat attack) it is 3d8, and that 6pts is extra... however it also debufffs (frost fire gives disadvantage, ray of frost reduces speed...why can I only think of cold... Chill touch (not cold) stops regeneration and can disadvantage) but if we go just damage with the d10s then it is 3d10. so 3d8+6 min 9 max 30 average 17. 3d10 min 3 max 30 average 16.

it may not have 'rocked past' but it atleast kept up.

It was not confused. The fighter had 14 dex because it was a strength based fighter using a bow, are you attempting to change the whiteroom being discussed? A strength based fighter with the extreme damage gap who "at least kept up" when switching to a suboptimal weapon like a 500gp+1 bow in their weak area is hardly a case for the kinds of gestalt PC level improvements being thrown about as needed.

If it was a dex based fighter specialized in bows you could change it to 4.5(the bow's d8 avg)+5(dex+2(the bow mods)+10(sharpshooter) for a total of 21.5 per shot across 3 shots. That too is more than both 5.5+nothing(d10 avg) of firebolt and 6.5+nothing(d12 average). The the caster gains extra dice, but those gains are made adjacent to the fighter extra attack gains that multiply the bonuses & modifiers

At the end of all that 5.5 will still aleways be less than 6.5 rather than the other way around as claimed earlier.

 

[TheSword]

no non caster gets any class feature equal to a single 6th level spell... at 20th you have 2 6th 1 7th 1 8th and 1 9th.
remember hexblade,some bards and half clerics can do that and still be pretty close to melee fighters in AC,damage, and hp

As has been said. Fighter powers are additive, spells are isolated. A 6th level spell will only ever be as good as it is on the page (bar some very minor tinkering from feats/subclass). Many fighter abilities stack, which in combination are better than a single spell.

is the best limit yet... and still allows to 'only' have 1 or 2 big buffs up at a time

If indeed they are willing to use their precious concentration on buffs rather than bigbys hand etc. And more importantly waste the first two rounds of combat - the single biggest cost to a wizard - the action economy.

spell resistance (I assume you mean magic resistance) is a joke and energy immunity/resistance is only an issue if your caster doesn't have diversity of energy types (witch is possible, and with spell known class likely) but we keep compare optimal fighter.... so now we need to play the caster dumb AND optimize the fighter

How is getting advantage on saves against banishment and dominate, and all those supposedly awesome cantrips etc etc a joke? I can also add legendary resistance the mix for an extra gut punch for wizards.

weapon (blud/slahs/peirce) can also be resist and immune just FYI... so that about equals out

Every fighter in every game has a +1 weapon by 5th level at the latest. Pretending otherwise is willful blindness.

yeah cause the 'take the enemy out of the fight' spells might only work for 1 round, or (less likely) 2... but martials have nothing like it

They don’t need them, they take the enemy out of the fight permanently, by killing them. Unlike hold monster which just means it needs a fighter to deal with it in a couple of rounds, when the wizard is out of spells.

not withstanding my hate of fumbles... I doubt many casters only have a 10% chance of fail... but all it does is mean cast another spell

It means losing another high level slot, and spending time re-applying the buff again. Else being vulnerable.

how much does it cost to learn new fighting technices... oh you just can't raw... got it

One feat. Of which the fighter get several.

like concentration this is a good idea... but few spells have them

It’s still an extra cost the wizard balances that the fighter doesn’t.

lol what... wizards and sorcerers have the least hp in the game... at an average of 2 less per level.

Yes, they generally have less Hp. That was my point. They have 66% of the hp + Con. I’m not sure why this is controversial.

what do you mean limited? 1 1st level spells slot, 1 invocation and you can have mage armor all day. or you can put on leather armor for a feat... and many casters (including 1/2 of all clerics) can have full plate

Mage armour gives you AC 13 + Dex. Cleric armour? It’s amazing how you try and cherry pick the best feature from each caster and pretend they apply to them all.

and how many manuvers can fighters know... I'll wait well you look that up

Plenty to spend those precious points. Though I prefer EK

so as long as it is better then 3e? you do know they can make there own right?

Only painfully slowly, and dependent on the time and materials available.

limited power gain... lucky seems like still the break away star, but magic adept letting you break your own concept of what magic is feels pretty powerful too.

Magic adept is fun. It it’s once a day. Fighter feats can add useful abilities to every single round of combat for extremely efficient action economy.

yes you did... but all that does is stops novaing and force you to have longer work days...

It stops wizards dominating by downsizing the volume of weight they can shift in a combat, dramatically.

or it can suggest the dragon go home and guard it's hoard, or it can make it break out into laughter missing a turn, or it can launch a 3rd level fire or lighting spell that even save for half is a joke becuse they KNEW they were over powered...

Well it probably can’t, because the dragon has legendary resistance and immunity to fire or possibly lightning. But it’s a nice thought. Even if the wizard did spend three rounds casting spells to no avail to whittle down the resistance. There’s still an angry dragon 1 hour later. The fighter just kills it

It’s also worth noting that fighters are kings of the action economy. Firstly and most importantly they are pret a porter, ready to go from round 1. Secondly It is very easy to consistently get repeatable action, bonus action and reactions that can be useful in every round of combat. The wizard however is burning through 1st and 2nd level slots to use its shield and misty step just to stay alive and wasting its first few actions trying to get blink/fly/mirror image up to stay alive. I’ve lost track of the times my sorcerer has spent 2 rounds prepping only to find out the combat is over next round!

Throw in action surge and the Fighter can consistently carry heavy weight, particularly in one on one fights.

 

[Maxperson]

1) Combat is the fighters thing. The wizard doesn't have to be good. Just helpful.

Then things are roughly balanced. The fighter is superior in what is in many, if not most games the most important pillar(xp, treasure, time taken during games, etc.), and the wizard is superior in the other lesser pillars. I do think the fighter could use a bit of help in the other pillars, but if he's kicking wizard rear in combat, things are working as intended.

2) Goading attack is a Battlemaster feature. What if the Fighter isn't a Battlemaster? If the Fighter's ability to do its job is completely dependent on choosing the right subclass then the fighter base class is flawed.

Then the fighter is an eldritch knight most likely and has spells. I've yet to see a champion played. I'm excluding books outside core, since it can't be assumed that any given group will be using those.

 

[Aldarc]

You are assigning motives to people you do not know, and haven't spoken to on the matter, so I question that it reflects reality, yes.

So, there's a subtle difference between "satisfy" and "appease" and you choose one over the other for no clear reason. I mean, it is not like Aldarc saying it makes it true. You make it sound like making a thing that people like is... bad. They should have made design choices discarding feedback? They should make a product and not consider attracting customers?

It is very easy to not like a thing, and accuse the makers of various and sundry personal failings, because this is the internet, and they aren't here - they are these distant things we don't treat with respect because we are cheesed off. It feels good to make it something we can look down on them for. Which is a very good reason to question when we do it.

IMHO, the overarching point of my post is more important that the semantics of "appease" versus some other word choice, so I am not committed to the use of "appease." The word "satisfy" also works for my purposes.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Thanks I should have double checked the damage die instead of posting from a middle of the night fog walk but the original problem with how is damaging being calculated still stands because a fighter with 14 dex & longbow out damages 20int firebolt because (4.5+2)*x is more than (5.5+nothing)*x

Except that you are at -3 tohit vs. Firebolt.