D&D 5E (2014) Tweak Instant Cure spells to fix whack-a-mole

[Chaosmancer]

Or, you simply rule that the downed PC does not need to make death saves so long as the cleric is working on them. Say it requires concentration - if the cleric loses concentration on the spell, the spell fails and the downed PC starts making death saves again.

Using the concentration mechanic also allows the cleric to do *some* things - sling an occasional quick spell or whack someone who approaches with a weapon - while healing.

I could see that working, though it really makes life hard on the cleric (my default assumption for the healer, even though it is no longer true) to have to drop concentration spells to go and cast a traditionally non-concentration spell.


Actually, seeing a lot of people's comment reminded me of my own houserule (It's never come up because the party hasn't gone down a lot yet, and they don't have a lot of healing)

I wanted to make coming back from death feel more like a shock to the system, so I gave temporary exhaustion levels to players who were healed from zero in combat. So, for the first 1 or 2 times it happens, probably not a lot fo effect, but if you keep dropping and coming back consistently, your body starts having issues.

And by temporary, I mean they disappear once the combat is over and the PC has had a chance to fully stabilize.

Since I see no issue in coming back once or twice, and I've never seen someone come back more times than that, it seemed an appropriate rule.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If the problem is caused by what you say it is caused by, there would be no "some do not".

That's some wonky logic. Not everyone who smokes dies of lung cancer, so smoking can't possibly cause lung cancer?

Even if it were sound, does denying that someone's experiencing a problem ever make it go away? No.

Now, unequivocally, 5e's heal-from-zero rule makes it more efficient to heal a downed creature than one still standing, since any damage 'over' what drops you to 0 is nullified. Doesn't mean a given group will notice that fact nor let it drive their tactics even if they do, but it's there. Removing it as an incentive might make sense if it's already causing a problem, but 'balancing' it by punishing the decision to use the more efficient option may or may not be the best way...

More dangerous combat is definitely the objective.

One obvious response would be to heal allies before they drop, that would mean support casters doing more healing in combat, overall, just less efficient healing, so they'd have fewer slots left over for other things. That wouldn't necessarily make combats more dangerous in general. It might put more pressure on the party in the last encounter or two of the day - which also just might give them an incentive to seek to shorten the day.

 

[Psikerlord#]

So maybe I'm missing something here. The premise of this thread is that whack a mole strategy is a "problem" that needs to be "fixed". Why is this a problem exactly? Is the game suffering somehow because of it?

Yes I find the game is far too easy with whack-a-mole going on. That's my main issue. Yes, I know I can have monsters beat on down PCs, but for me that isnt believable in many instances - if the monsters are still being threatened by active characters, they dont have time to hit downed ones, "just in case" the party has healing magic. Many mindless monsters wouldnt worry about downed PCs, etc

I want dropping hps to create a sense of urgency/suspense in the players - a feeling that this is dangerous combat. Whack-a-mole healing prevents that.

 

[Yunru]

Yes I find the game is far too easy with whack-a-mole going on. That's my main issue. Yes, I know I can have monsters beat on down PCs, but for me that isnt believable in many instances - if the monsters are still being threatened by active characters, they dont have time to hit downed ones, "just in case" the party has healing magic. Many mindless monsters wouldnt worry about downed PCs, etc

I want dropping hps to create a sense of urgency/suspense in the players - a feeling that this is dangerous combat. Whack-a-mole healing prevents that.

In a word, you want (being) dying to matter?

 

[nswanson27]

Yes I find the game is far too easy with whack-a-mole going on. That's my main issue. Yes, I know I can have monsters beat on down PCs, but for me that isnt believable in many instances - if the monsters are still being threatened by active characters, they dont have time to hit downed ones, "just in case" the party has healing magic. Many mindless monsters wouldnt worry about downed PCs, etc

I want dropping hps to create a sense of urgency/suspense in the players - a feeling that this is dangerous combat. Whack-a-mole healing prevents that.

Do your players not feel this already when someone goes down? I guess I do when I play.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Do your players not feel this already when someone goes down? I guess I do when I play.

No they dont, I think because they know they have 3 death saves up their sleeve, plus healing word if things get genuinely dangerous.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I should confess at this point that Low Fantasy Gaming (free PDF in my sig) uses this 1d3 minute delay for magical healing at zero hp. It certainly makes combat more dangerous, and players take steps to avoid being dropped to zero hp. LFG has a different damage recovery system however (5 min short rest heals half your damage, after that you need magic for further (quick) healing).

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

That's some wonky logic. Not everyone who smokes dies of lung cancer, so smoking can't possibly cause lung cancer?

Not equivalent forms of logic.

This is more equivalent to what I am talking about: Two smokers; One chips a tooth, the other doesn't. The one with a chipped tooth says that smoking chips teeth, while the other says "Maybe since I don't have any chipped teeth, the cause is actually something other than the smoking?"

Because we aren't talking about a luck-of-the-draw case of my, and any other, group not having the mindset being discussed - we are talking about my group being at no risk of developing that mindset despite using the rules that are being falsely blamed as being the cause.

...does denying that someone's experiencing a problem ever make it go away? No.

I've never denied that someone is experiencing a problem, so that isn't relevant.

Now, unequivocally, 5e's heal-from-zero rule makes it more efficient to heal a downed creature than one still standing, since any damage 'over' what drops you to 0 is nullified.

That being true doesn't make heal-from-zero the most efficient use of resources. It is often more advantageous to not use resources for healing at all, which also means characters aren't popping back up repeatedly as indicated by the "whack-a-mole" designation.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Maybe it is because I generally deal with less experienced players. But I've seen people begin to panic over having less than 1/2 their hp, let alone dropping to zero and making death saves. No one has ever acted cavalier about it. My table would have to have some pretty dramatic shifts to not start worrying until they're second death saving throw has been failed.

 

[Yunru]

No they don't, I think because they know they have 3 death saves up their sleeve, plus healing word if things get genuinely dangerous.

How scary do you want to make it?

You could:

• Make failed death saving throws not reset until after a long rest.
• Make a failed death saving throw apply a level of exhaustion.
• Make healing only stabilise the turn it's applied to a dying player, and have the actual healing apply on their next turn.
• Have a player's MaxHP decrease by one hit die until they rest.
• Any combination of the above.

I only stick consequences on a failed saving throw because healers should want to heal players as soon as they go down. Of course, they should want to heal people before that happens more.

I also suggest more monsters with multiattack, so if the healer tries to just throw a low-level spell to avoid negative consequences, the monster can just hit them back down and move on to said healer.