TWF with a THW & IUS?

[werk]

So all the recent talk about unarmed combat has me rethinking a character concept I had. Basically he's a ranger that uses a bastard sword in his main hand and punches with the off hand. It gave a great image, I thought, especially for a low Cha, barrel chested, rough and tumble type of guy.

Now I'm thinking, why waste a feat on bastard sword and instead just grab a two handed weapon...because unarmed strikes don't have to be punches and all the other benefits of a two-handed weapon. But before I take it to my DM, I wanted to make sure I had everything worked out...

Two Weapon Fighting[sblock]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.

Prerequisite
Dex 15.

Benefit
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

Normal
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

Special
A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.[/sblock]

It clearly calls out weapons in hands and off-hand weapon rather than just secondary weapon. So I couldn't do this using a two-handed weapon, but could with the bastard sword...and all my secondary attacks would be punches.

Am I reading that right? I'm not overly concerned because it looks like the RAW actually forces me into my original concept, but it would be nice to have a ranger that can deal some real melee damage without spending all my money on weapons and weapon enhancements.

It makes sense that it could be a little overpowered, I guess, but it wouldn't apply to two weapon fighting with a two handed weapon and armor spikes, because the spikes specifically call out that they can be weilded as an off-hand weapon. That seems like it is more easily overpowered than using unarmed strikes...and requires one less feat to achieve.

 

[Sejs]

The attack penalties for TWF remain the same regardless if you're using a shortsword in each hand, or using a greatsword and headbutting people.

The only real issue that I see arising is the division of your strength modifier.

Normal 2h weapon: 1.5 str mod.

Two 1h weapons: main hand gets 1x str mod, off hand gets 0.5 str mod.

...2h weapon and unarmed strikes/armor spikes: 1.5 str mod and 0.5 str mod?

The only tradeoff I can see (and granted, it is a noteworthy one) is that you're limited to using inferior weaponry as off-hand, if used in conjunction with a 2h weapon.

 

[werk]

The attack penalties for TWF remain the same regardless if you're using a shortsword in each hand, or using a greatsword and headbutting people.

The only real issue that I see arising is the division of your strength modifier.

I didn't see where I mentioned attack penalties or strength modifiers in my post at all...


So, to get back on topic, did you read Two-Weapon fighting?

"You can fight with a weapon in each hand." seems pretty, uh, specific.

 

[Darklone]

Yeah, the twohanded weapon plus armor spikes has been discussed a lot... many people use/allow it, I wouldn't. It's just a silly image and I don't think THF dudes need another boost.

 

[Zaruthustran]

"You can fight with a weapon in each hand." seems pretty, uh, specific.

Yeah, that's the most common use of TWF, but it's not a requirement. Armor spikes, shield bash, and Improved Unarmed Strike are all weapons that can be used when TWFing but aren't held in the hand. Same goes for two-handed weapons and IUS or spikes. You can use TWF to get an extra attack even if, as an extreme example, you don't have any hands at all (double arm amputee wearing spiked armor and IUS feat).

It's has been discussed quite a bit (I had a character who wielded a greatsword and armor spikes, and Hypersmurf and I had a long argument over it a few years ago), but it was finally settled in the FAQ.

Q: Just how and when can you use armor spikes? If you’re
using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to
make a second off-hand attack? What if you’re using a
weapon and a shield? Can you use the armor spikes for an
off-hand attack and still get a shield bonus to Armor Class
from the shield? What if you use a two-handed weapon?

A: When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an
extra attack... If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn
(or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you
use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack
action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light
weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a
shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases,
you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your
armor spikes.

Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon,
you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see
Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook). When using armor
spikes along with a two-handed weapon, it is usually best to
use the two-handed weapon as your primary attack and the
armor spikes as the off-hand weapon. You can use the armor
spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as
the off-hand attack, but when you do so, you don’t get the
benefit of using a light weapon in your off hand.

-z

 

[Zaruthustran]

The only tradeoff I can see (and granted, it is a noteworthy one) is that you're limited to using inferior weaponry as off-hand, if used in conjunction with a 2h weapon.

Right. High strength rangers with TWF and Power Attack are better off with greatsword and armor spikes. High dex rogues with TWF and Weapon Finesse are better off with two short swords or cutlasses. It all depends on how much damage your derive from your Strength.

 

[Angerland]

The attack penalties for TWF remain the same regardless if you're using a shortsword in each hand, or using a greatsword and headbutting people.

The only real issue that I see arising is the division of your strength modifier.

Normal 2h weapon: 1.5 str mod.

Two 1h weapons: main hand gets 1x str mod, off hand gets 0.5 str mod.

...2h weapon and unarmed strikes/armor spikes: 1.5 str mod and 0.5 str mod?

The only tradeoff I can see (and granted, it is a noteworthy one) is that you're limited to using inferior weaponry as off-hand, if used in conjunction with a 2h weapon.

this IS on topic with your post as you will need to know what sort of strength bonus you get to add to your weapons. As for not wanting to spend all your money on weapons and enhancements, what are you going to do when you face something that needs a magic weapon to hit or to overcome DR?

You will of course still be able to use your bastard sword/2 handed sword but you won't get the extra attacks of TWF so the feat will be wasted in these situations....that could be some big trouble. If you go the armor spikes route you still have to enchant them too.


I'm just saying this in case you haven't already thought this part through, if you have then please, carry on.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Minor nitpick...

Only a Monk can attack with with his head, elbow, etc. with an unarmed strike.

A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

If you are not a Monk, but you have IUS, you can only make Improved Unarmed Strikes with your hands, because they are considered light weapons (light weapons can only be used in the hands).

A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon

Seems like unarmed strikes are always considered light weapons. And light weapons, from what I read, can only be used in one-hand, the off-hand, or in two-hands (though there is no benefit for this).

Unless there is a quote I am missing which expressly allows (Improved) Unarmed Strikes for non-Monks with parts of the body other than their primary or off-hands.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Seems like unarmed strikes are always considered light weapons. And light weapons, from what I read, can only be used in one-hand, the off-hand, or in two-hands (though there is no benefit for this).

Huh? What about armor spikes (light weapon, not held in hand), shield bash with a light shield (light weapon, not held in hand), and using the other end of a double weapon (light weapon, but actually part of a two-handed weapon)?

Unless there is a quote I am missing which expressly allows (Improved) Unarmed Strikes for non-Monks with parts of the body other than their primary or off-hands.

Where does it say that "Unarmed Strike" is always and only a punch? Are you implying that a fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike isn't able to kick his opponent?

Anyway, here's the quote you asked for:

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon

-z

 

[werk]

Huh? What about armor spikes (light weapon, not held in hand)

Armor spikes specifically call out that they count as a light weapon weilded in the off-hand...even though they are not. That's a little loophole that can be used to accomplish what I want to do, but it doesn't specifically allow what I want to do, which is unarmed attacks and a 2-h weapon.

I had planned on Str mods of 1.5 for the 2-h and .5 for the unarmed. I didn't see how that was really up for interpretation.

THis is really what I'm after...

The attack penalties for TWF remain the same regardless if you're using a shortsword in each hand, or using a greatsword and headbutting people.

Where are you getting this? If I could find something written to support this, we can close the thread right then. Everything I see is saying that two weapon fighting is only allowed with two weapons held in your hands...for creatures with only two arms/hands.