Two haste weapons

[hong]

Why are you just sitting there babbling?

They nerfed something that didnt need to be because the guy was an idiot or bad at math. That has been said before.

The volume of whinging it provoked puts paid to the notion that it was unnecessary.

The game is designed to nerf rogues? No one said anything like this,

Rogues get the bulk of their combat power from sneak attack. Anything that protects against crits, also protects against sneak attacks. Hence, the statement

"But as you go up in levels more and more are resistant are immune [to crits], that is just the way that the game is designed."

effectively implies that the game is designed to nerf rogues. Do I have to spell everything out?

but apparently you just dont like any part of this game.

Indeed, that's why I'm the one that's whinging.

 

[Scion]

Indeed, that's why I'm the one that's whinging.

Well then stop whining hong.

Sneak attack is one of the easiest abilities in the game to negate, this has nothing to do with crits. Nor does it really hamper the rogues, they have lots of other things going for them.

Now, do you actually have any numbers to backup any claims?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Still no popcorn. I think breakfast cereals will have to do.

Well then stop whining hong.

Yea, hong, cease your whining It was made perfectly clear that the sole (and quite sufficient) reason for the change was the game designer in question not having a Degree in Maths.

Sneak attack is one of the easiest abilities in the game to negate, this has nothing to do with crits.

I disagree. Immunity to crits is really the only thing that can give you total immunity to SNEAK ATTACK. Uncanny dodge? You still can be held or otherwise hindered from moving, and the rogue can still feint you, and flank. UD and Improved UD? There's still the possiblity of feints and immobilization. Feints can be made less probable to succeed (sense motive), but not be cauntered outright. You can get Freedom of Movement, but that won't be able to protect you all day, and it can be dispelled. So the only surefire way to defeat uncanny dodge is to be immune to crits.


My opinion on crits: I think they should be something special. I like the word "Thread" said in slightly raised voice, and the shouts of "YES! CRIT! when you score one. But that won't happen if you have a threat range of 12-20, or even 10-20 or something with this PrC or other. Than it's usual that every hit is a possible crit. Don't give me the "you might not hit with everything below 15 anyway!" line, for unless you design everything to have very high AC, only to defeat the high crit range of one of the players, chances will be that their AB is sufficient enouth to hit with their first 2 attacks most of the time, and therefore have a very good chance of scoring a crit, and the other hits will be either misses or threats, due to the high threat range. Where's the excitement in that? Sure, you can make the DM happy when you tell him that this isn't a crit, but crits won't be great any more.
And then, we're usually talking about weapons that are loaded with special abilities that fire when you score a crit, so they will further increase their damage with those weapons.

Also, the d20 rules are made to be used by a lot of people to create a lot of additional material, so the system should make sure this myriad can't be abused too easily. If you allow improved crit and keen to stack, you set the precedent for Greater Crit and Advanced Crit feats - both of which come from totally different sources, as well as the greater keen improvement, or the Higher Crit special ability of a PrC. But if you say that no two crit range improvement abilities stuck unless ruled otherwise, you can have an improved keen, which gives you 3x the normal crit range for a +3 market price modifier in one book, the Greater Crit Feat, (which requires Improved Crit and does Stack with it, like stated in the Special paragraph of the feat write-up) who further increases the range beyond Improved Crit in another, and in a third source a Higher Crit ability of a PrC who increases the threat range by two. Now you can have a further improved crit range (for the right price), but since these sources don't stuck with each other unless it is noted in the description, you won't have someone who uses them all together to have a threat range of 2-20.


[EDIT]Oops, wrong word, there. Changes in Capitals.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Gentlemen...

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[reiella]

I disagree. Immunity to crits is really the only thing that can give you total immunity to crits. Uncanny dodge? You still can be held or otherwise hindered from moving, and the rogue can still feint you, and flank. UD and Improved UD? There's still the possiblity of feints and immobilization. Feints can be made less probable to succeed (sense motive), but not be cauntered outright. You can get Freedom of Movement, but that won't be able to protect you all day, and it can be dispelled. So the only surefire way to defeat uncanny dodge is to be immune to crits.

Heavy Fortification makes you sorta immune to crits. (+5 equivilance)

Just a 100% chance of negating a critical hit or a sneak attack, but I think that's good enough for "Crit Immunity" in terms of this discussion .

 

[Scion]

I disagree. Immunity to crits is really the only thing that can give you total immunity to crits.

I am guessing you meant to say sneak attack with the last part there, not immunity to crits.

Sneak attack is easy, just stand in the shade. You are immune. Along with any number of hundreds of things.

And then, we're usually talking about weapons that are loaded with special abilities that fire when you score a crit, so they will further increase their damage with those weapons.

Which is just good planning, but the overall damage still isnt enough to eliminate the possibility of doing so.

Also, the d20 rules are made to be used by a lot of people to create a lot of additional material, so the system should make sure this myriad can't be abused too easily.

No, the core SHOULD NOT be written to try to fix problems that third parties might make. Or even that wotc itself might make. The core should be for the core, not pandering to the least common denominator.

It is up to dms whether to allow in some questionable third party material. Even then whatever the cost is might make it ok to use. Having a threat range of 2-20 after spending tons of money and a bunch of feats on a x2 weapon? probably isnt a huge deal. Especially since most of the time the extra crit range wont matter.

Creatures of appropriate cr to be a real challenge will have ways to be a real challenge. If all of the rules work out fairly well, and the rules for improvd crit and keen were fine by all numbers presented so far, then there shouldnt be a big problem.

Sure some combos will be hard for some dm's to deal with. But if we get rid of every combo that every dm ever has had a problem with then there would no longer be books. Just about every part of every book has been complained about at some point. So that cannot be used as a tool to judge. The actual numbers have to be run, and comparisons taken. This is very important.

Some random thing saying, 'crits arent rare enough' just isnt useful. It is a personal feeling from someone who needs someone to come by and walk him through some basic math. Not that that would change his mind in all likelyhood, everyone has their own personal pet peeves. But that does not stop it from being irrational.

 

[Scion]

Heavy Fortification makes you sorta immune to crits. (+5 equivilance)

Just a 100% chance of negating a critical hit or a sneak attack, but I think that's good enough for "Crit Immunity" in terms of this discussion .

Very true even the cheap +1 version helps quite a bit sometimes.

 

[andargor]

And for the record, it's "whining".

*ducks head*

Andargor

 

[Hypersmurf]

And for the record, it's "whining".

"Whining" is the present participle of "to whine".

"Whinging" is the present participle of "to whinge".

whinge
intr.v. Chiefly British whinged, whing·ing, whing·es
To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.
------
[Dialectal alteration of Middle English whinsen, from Old English hwinsian.]
------
whinger n.
whinging·ly adv.

Common word down our way.

-Hyp.

 

[heliopolix]

As to the original topic, I would allow 2 weapons of speed to stack. That means the character has bought, found, or made two +4 (or more) weapons. That just my opinion, however, as i think that the RAW do prohibit it. It seems to me that the weapon is bestowing on you a minor version of haste that you can only use with the weapon, similar to other items, like the Rings of elemental resistance, or gauntlets of ogre power. Those item do something to you. Counter arguement to this are items like Neckace of fireballs & Quall's tokes. they require you to use them, but they do what they do without "doing" anything to you. Im inclined to think that a Weapon of Speed is an item that "does something to you", and not "does something with your help".

As far as sneak attack/crit arguement, remember that the RAW are just a guideline that the designers feel is a balanced way to play the game. If you disagree with them, change them. I realize that these boards are a pretty cool way to discuss things, but please respect that other people's opinions are just as valid as your's are. Rules arguements are good to have, as they let people see sides of an issue they might not have, but dont dissolve into petty bickering and whining. Thats no fun for anyone involved or spectating. (Except for those forum trolls.)

which reminds me.. that would be a funny Template to make: Forum Troll. Give it literacy, Bluff, intimidate, and Sense motive. maye an "inspire rage in others" ability. Any takers?