Two little questions

[SBMC]

Well, it's debatable.

An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.

and

Because the somatic components required for bard spells are relatively simple, a bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a bard wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Now, it could be argued that an assassin casts bard spells in light armor without incurring ASF, but arcane spells from other classes (like assassin) still suffer.

It could also be argued that since the bard's ability to cast in light armor without ASF is detailed in the Weapon and Armor Proficiency section instead of the Spells section, it's inapplicable to the assassin.

But it can certainly also be argued that the assassin casts assassin spells in light armor like a bard casts bard spells in light armor - that is, with no ASF.

-Hyp.

But think about this angle;

Bard spells obviously are far more dependant on the verbal component; thus lessening the need for the somantic component; and thus there really is an equal exchange (perhaps not mechanicly in the game but certainly conceptually).

I would think that the last thing an assassin spell would have would be more of a verbal component; as assassins try to be quiet. If anything perhaps even more of a somatic component that other spells on other spell lists of the same name.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, I see two ways of looking at the Assassin Spells section and the meaning of the sentence "An assassin casts spells just as a bard does."

1. An assassin casts spells in all ways just as a bard does, using all of the rules on bards, unless specifically defined differently here. These being: based on Int, spells known, spells per day, and spell list.
2. An assassin casts spontaneously, like a bard. Note that this is the only part of the assassin's Spells section that is not provided that is really important. The bard says this, "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time." Obviously, it could be argued that this sentence should just be included in the Assassin description.

So, if you go for #1, I don't think you can selectively pick the undefined parts of Bardic casting. In other words, you have to use all the parts of Bardic casting that are not specifically overruled by the Assassinic* casting.

* Hey, everyone gets the opportunity to make up words.

 

[Deset Gled]

Well, it's debatable.
-Hyp.

I say ASF applies to an Assassin.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Bards are proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a bard wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Spells: A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: Bard Spells Known indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.
The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Bard Spells Known are fixed.)
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

Note that the ability to cast in light armor without ASF is part of a bards Armor Proficiency, not part of their casting ability. Thus, "casting spells just as a bard" does not transfer this ability, but something like "is proficient with armor just as a bard" would.

 

[RigaMortus2]

If the Assassin does suffer from ASF, then why would they not have said "The assassin casts spells as a Sorcerer"?

 

[Peter Gibbons]

1. Yes.

2. No.

 

[Christian]

If the Assassin does suffer from ASF, then why would they not have said "The assassin casts spells as a Sorcerer"?

Exactly. The 3.0 Assassin entry says that they 'cast spells like a Wizard'. This changed in 3.5 to 'like a Bard'. If the only reason for the change was that it was decided that Assassins should cast spontaneously, the obvious choice would be Sorcerer; evidently, the intent of the designers was to include facets of the Bard casting method that Sorcerers didn't get. The obvious candidates are ASF reduction for light armor and the inability to use Silent Spell ... The two issues with this are that (a) this is guessing at designer intent by comparing editions, rather than just looking at the RAW, and (b) if you stick to this through thick and thin, Assassins do cast their spells by singing and playing instruments. Obviously, this is natural house rule territory ...

 

[RigaMortus2]

Is that an actual rule regarding bards? Does it actually say they cast their spells by singing/playing instruments, or is this just assumed?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Is that an actual rule regarding bards? Does it actually say they cast their spells by singing/playing instruments, or is this just assumed?

It's a little more than that, though.

From Bard Spells: "Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music)."

From Silent Spell: "Bard spells cannot be enhanced by this metamagic feat."

If you disallow ASF then you have to follow the above to be consistent. Note that they all use the term "bard spell" so you can selectively pick one over the other.

From Bard Weapon and Armor Prof.: "A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance."

 

[Infiniti2000]

I maintain that the correct interpretation from both RAW and intent is my #2 from post 12. The only part of the Bard Spells section you should use is "As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level."

 

[Peter Gibbons]

From Bard Spells: "Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music)."

From Silent Spell: "Bard spells cannot be enhanced by this metamagic feat."

If you disallow ASF then you have to follow the above to be consistent.

But the above have nothing to do with casting bard spells. The first is simply a general rule about the components of bard spells, not the manner in which they are cast. Since there are published assassin spells that do not have verbal components, we know this general rule concerning spell components does not apply to assassin spells.

The second is a rule concerning use of the Silent Spell feat. There is no reason to assume it has anything to do with bard or assassin spellcasting in general.

From Bard Weapon and Armor Prof.: "A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance."

Now that is a rule that addresses spellcasting.