Two New Language-Related Feats

[Saeviomagy]

Wow. Way too boost the cleric in a serious way. I guess anyone who wants to summon things for anything other than combat has to be a cleric in your campaign.

Nice to see that wizards and bards get so much compensation, especially since wizards are the traditional traffickers with demons and their ilk, and bards are supposed to be the traditional language masters.

Finally - you need to be 7th level to speak another language (ie - not your native language) with a semblance of fluency (even though you can still apparently fail to understand normal speech).

Also - +10 makes you fluent. But you can still botch up sentences? You still need to make rolls to speak your own language? Sounds really tedious to me.

Can the PC's decipher the ancient runes before the walls crush them? It's called decipher script. Of course, under your system, it sounds like it's perfectly possible for them to not be able to read it even if it's written plainly in their native language.

After recieving some 6 weeks of training in italian (once a week for 3 hours), I could understand enough spoken italian (accents and all) to stumble through simple situations like ordering food in a restaurant (and understanding that certain items weren't available, because the oven was broken), work out the price etc. 6 weeks. If it was written, I could pretty much guarantee comprehension, even if it was a discussion of the history of ancient museum pieces. I read slower than I would in my own language, but I could still do it, and guarantee doing it.

And you're saying that I gained how many levels in that 6 weeks?

 

[der_kluge]

Saeviomagy, you just like to argue, don't you?

First off, it doesn't make any sense to me that a 1st level cleric would be completely proficient in the language of celestial creatures. "Hey, I'm Fred, a 1st level cleric, I've never met an angel, but if I had, I could speak with it fluently". Um, yea.

Gaining +1 in a language every level is in addition to whatever ranks that PC puts into that language himself. A player can put ranks in any language just like any other skill. And you can "take 10" on a language check, and it only "takes 10" to basically speak anything fluently. Having more than 10 ranks in a language is generally not necessary, unless you want to write poetry, or legal documents. Shakespeare would have had 20 ranks in English. He had a huge vocabulary, that few writers come close to matching today.

You don't have to be 7th level to speak a language fluently, it's based on ranks in that language. If you pump enough points into it at 1st level, you can speak it fluently, and unless you're in a hurry, you can just take 10 if you have at least a +5 modifier. So, if you have an 18 int, you can put 1 point into a language, get a +5 total modifier to the language, and then just take 10 on your language checks.

I gave clerics, druids, etc language point bonuses since they get bonus languages. Bards and wizards don't get any kind of language bonuses. So, despite what you may think about their ability to speak so many languages, the core rules don't support that.

 

[green slime]

Hmm.... And here was me thinking that bards was one of the few classes that actually had Speak Language as a class skill...

I think it sounds like it works for your campaign, but personally, I'd rather stick with the rules as they are written. To me it shouldn't be so complicated to learn a new language.

Look at all the Catholic Priests out there who know Latin... And nobody, for some time, has meet a native speaker of Latin. Latin is a dead language, when it comes to native speakers.

Thus I have no problem with low level clerics speaking Celestial in spite of never having met an Angel. If it is used in an organisation, you can bet there will be people willing and happy to teach it to you. Now finding someone who professes to knowing Infernal, that may be slightly more difficult, according to who you regularly associate with...

 

[SylverFlame]

First of all, I like what you guys have. Language generally gets overlooked. My PC's in 2e hated my guts when they realized I was using languages and none of them took orc. Fun to see them starting hacking up the guys that came to give them food and water (they were lost and starving at the time) and show them how they could by-pass an entire dungeon that eventually claimed the lives of 2/5's of the group. After I revealed this to them I had to dodge dice for a week.

As for die_Kluge's system, I do think it is a little harsh. For anyone other than a Bard you have to be level 5 before you can yell to the elf in his own language about the orc axe that's about to take off his head. That's a little harsh if you ask me. (This, of course, assumes cross-class and combat situations where you CANNOT take 10 due to the stressful situation).

What if you halfed the numbers? 5 ranks for fluent and 10 for master?

As for die_Kluge's comment on Shakespeare being a rank 20: First, Shakespeare was considered a "fluffy writter" for many years (think action movie stuff for the present day) and it was not until he got noticed by the King of England that he was considered "Great"; as for Shaky-boys vocabulary abilities, he made up many of the words (like crocodile) and he mostly used metaphor (ie. "the beast with two backs" to describe Othello and Desdemona having sex in "Othello"). Besides this, the class name Bard is a reference to Bill's nickname of The Bard. Sorry for the English lesson, gotta use the degree somehow....

 

[haiiro]

Well-Traveled seems kind of unnecessary, though. You get the same benefit for taking Linguist and spending one skill point, plus you get the class skill benefit. And who can't spare a single measly skill point?

It's the same trade-off as Skill Focus vs. Cosmopolitan (from the FRCS): if SL is already a class skill for you, there's no point in taking Linguist -- so Well-Travelled is a good option for you.

If you don't have SL as a class skill (everyone but bards), then you might want a one-time boost in the number of languages you know (Well-Travelled), but you might also want to get a boost and the option to add points to SL on a 1:1 basis down the road (Linguist).

That's why I think it makes sense to have both feats available.

 

[der_kluge]

My language rules are meant to be difficult, because the world has numerous dead languages that I've intentionally made difficult, and sometimes impossible to learn. It adds a depth of history and richness to the world that makes it unique, IMHO.

And again, I think everyone is thinking DCs of like 15, 20, or whatever to make a language check. If something requires it, it might be DC 10, or 8, or something really low. So, it works out in the end. Plus, if you've got a high int, and you put one rank into a language, you could have a +5 modifier right at 1st level. That covers most languages relatively easily.

 

[Nellisir]

Frankly, I like die-kluge's way. It might not work for everyone, but it makes alot more sense than "everyone in the world speaks Common". It'd be pretty cool in a role-heavy campaign, particularly if the players can make their own rolls, and mess up their own speech.

Cheers
nell.

 

[SylverFlame]

okay die Kluge, I get where you're coming from. So, what if common languages (like 'basic' elven, common, dwarven, etc.) had a lower DC to represent that they are spoken frequently, and all the Dead Languages are a higher DC to represent lack of knowledge concerning them and the fact that no one's really sure how they are supposed to be spoken.

As well, what if a person got a synergy bonus for languages with a similar alphabet (like gnome and dwarf)? I think it would fit...

 

[Olive]

As for die_Kluge's comment on Shakespeare being a rank 20: First, Shakespeare was considered a "fluffy writter" for many years (think action movie stuff for the present day) and it was not until he got noticed by the King of England that he was considered "Great"; as for Shaky-boys vocabulary abilities, he made up many of the words (like crocodile) and he mostly used metaphor (ie. "the beast with two backs" to describe Othello and Desdemona having sex in "Othello"). Besides this, the class name Bard is a reference to Bill's nickname of The Bard. Sorry for the English lesson, gotta use the degree somehow....

Total thread hijack in effect:

First of all Shakespeare's nickname of The Bard is NOT the origin of the bard. A bard, according to dictionary.com is:

"1. One of an ancient Celtic order of minstrel poets who composed and recited verses celebrating the legendary exploits of chieftains and heroes.
2. A poet, especially a lyric poet. "

The bard class name reffers to definition 1. Secondly, Shakespeare was a fluffy writer, but he was also probably the most influential writer in the history of the language, mostly because of the metaphors he used. Vocabulary aside, we still use the phrases (and the words) he used.

Personally his work drives me round the bend.

 

[SylverFlame]

OT to Olive

I consede the definition. Also, it is nice to find a person who is equally "driven round the bend" by Shakespeare.