D&D 5E Two-Weapon Fighting Idea

kerleth

Explorer
EDIT 11/1: Here is the most recent and promising version for those new to the thread. The idea has changed quite a lot.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/6040441-post53.html
END EDIT


I don't like the current two-weapon fighting rules. The last playtest packet seemed to be heading in the right direction to me. So here's my stab at them, followed by a partial specialty. Any criticisms or suggestions to finish the specialty are welcome.

Firstly, there needs to be a light weapon property. Using finesse weapons doesn't work because a handaxe in each hand makes perfect sense but rapiers don't. Wizards has hinted in this playtest that they will be implementing this, and I am going to assume it's existence on any weapon that logically could be wielded in your off-hand.

Edit: Here are the differences up front between this and the last packets version.
1) You don't need to spend a specialty on it. These are the default rules for everyone. This is huge.
2) Deadly Strike and Sneak Attack work better with this version.
3) You can use a longsword or other non-finesse/non-light weapon in your main hand. Iconic and a must.
4) You can mix it up with ranged attacks, to strike with your longsword than throw your dagger at another
at another enemy, or throw a pair of daggers. Also a part of the fiction that I feel must be supported.
5) No dual wielding rapiers, just cause they are both finesse. I have a hard time imagining that happening,
but I have little experience in fighting with weapons so I could be wrong there.
6) Allows for things like a mountain man fighting with hatchet in his off hand. Again with the fiction support.

BEGIN RULES TEXT
Two-Weapon Fighting.
Most warriors employ either one large weapon or a weapon and shield combination. A few warriors prefer to utilize a light weapon in their off-hand, prioritizing adaptability over raw power.
When you are wielding two-weapons and at least one of them is a light weapon, you may use an action to make an attack with each weapon. This is known as a two-weapon attack. These attacks may target the same or different creatures. If either of these weapons is a thrown weapon you may choose to split these attacks between melee and ranged attacks in any possible combination. Both attacks happen simultaneously and are considered a single attack for the purposes of any effect which would grant a bonus or penalty to your attack or damage. If one of these attacks qualifies for a conditional bonus, such as sneak attack, and the other doesn't, apply it to the attack that does but not the other attack. The total damage dealt by each of these attacks is reduced to half.
END RULES TEXT

If both attacks hit this would put the total damage at 2 or 3 points less than an equivalent two-handed warrior. In return you have a higher chance of dealing at least some damage and may split it up between two creatures. This has obvious strategic value against already weakened creatures and hordes of mooks. That gives two-handed, two-weapon, and sword and board warriors each their own niche. A 1/2 complete specialty lies below. The goal is that a character specializing in this becomes as skillful with his two weapons as both a two-handed warrior and a sword and board warrior. Of course, those characters also get specializations, so they could still eclipse the two-weapon fighter in their own niche if they further focus on their combat style.

Two Weapon Fighting Specialist

Two Weapon Defense
Benefit: When wielding a weapon in each hand you gain a +1 bonus to AC.

Twin Strike
Benefit: Whenever you make a two-weapon attack and either of your d20 attack rolls is a 20 before adding modifiers, both attacks automatically hit and critical.
 
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Chris_Nightwing

First Post
Is this not just the previous iteration of TWF? Make two attacks but each does half damage?

It's sub-optimal, the math has been done. The closest I have seen to a TWF that is balanced against a two-handed weapon across a range of ability score modifiers is restricting the offhand weapon to light and only allowing half of the ability score to add to damage. You have the choice then between 1d8+1/1d6+1 or 1d12+3 at 1st level, where TWF does slightly less average damage until you need a 19+ to hit. You trade-off a little damage for the ability to attack two targets, or one target with potential half-damage.
 

Hautamaki

First Post
There's another way to do TWF:

Keep the light handed restriction, and cut only the strength (or dex) bonus to damage in half; the weapons still do full damage.

This is better than a 2-handed attack yes?

So the balancing factor should come in how it deals with armour. With armour as straight hit-or-miss AC, there isn't much room to make the math work. But with armour at least partly as damage reduction, this DR would count double against TWF attacks, and thus make TWF sub-optimal compared to a single stronger attack against well armoured foes.

Of course DR armour opens up another whole kettle of fish, but it's one way to give TWF its own niche compared to THW.
 

kerleth

Explorer
The reason the other version was sub par was because you had to spend a specialty on it. This one is open to everyone by default, and the specialty improves it.
This version is definitely based upon that one, but solves issues with deadly strike and allows a character to wield a longsword and dagger combo, rather than just a pair of shortswords.
The idea is that it's DPR is NOT higher than the two-hander's. It's more versatile. A fighter splitting damage in this way could take down a pair of kobolds, where the two-handed fighter could not (without spending other character build options on it, which the two-weapon fighter spends on other things).
Furthermore, the problem with your option is it doesn't account for the ratcheting up of damage via spell boosts, masterwork weapons, the inevitable bonus damage from some special ability or class feature, etc. which have historically made two-weapon fighting such a problem spot.
 

kerleth

Explorer
I edited in a clarification on what the differences between this and the previous packet's version are in the original post.
Chris, you said the math has been done. Would you point me to the thread where that was done? It would be greatly appreciated.
Also, would the easier stackability of Expertise and the fact that you don't have to spend a specialty on it affect the end analysis?
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I think something like this could work:

Basically make relevant the off-hand. You can only use light weapons on your offhand and attacks made with it have disadvantage.

If you are holding a weapon on each hand you can attack with both at the same time but you can only add your str or dex modifier to damage (as well as any source of extra damage like Expertise Dice) to only one of the two attacks, not both.
 

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
Some math for you. I assumed str +3, that TWF used a 1d8 and 1d6 weapon, S+B used a 1d8 weapon and 2HW used a 1d12 weapon, following your rules above (not accounting for criticals, I'll admit), average damage is as follows:

Code:
[U]tohit	twf	s+b	2hw[/U]
1	0.35	0.375	0.475
2	0.7	0.75	0.95
3	1.05	1.125	1.425
4	1.4	1.5	1.9
5	1.75	1.875	2.375
6	2.1	2.25	2.85
7	2.45	2.625	3.325
8	2.8	3	3.8
9	3.15	3.375	4.275
10	3.5	3.75	4.75
11	3.85	4.125	5.225
12	4.2	4.5	5.7
13	4.55	4.875	6.175
14	4.9	5.25	6.65
15	5.25	5.625	7.125
16	5.6	6	7.6
17	5.95	6.375	8.075
18	6.3	6.75	8.55
19	6.65	7.125	9.025
20	7	7.5	9.5

So it's strictly worse than using just a longsword.
 

ferratus

Adventurer
The solution to two weapon fighting is simple.

TWF - two attacks
Sword and shield - increase shield bonus from +1 to +5
Two-handed weapons - Double damage of one-handed weapons.

There, everything balances. Sword and Shield guys are defensive fighters, two-weapon fighters are whirling dervishes, and two handed guys are slayers.

No feats required, yet it does everything you want it to.
 

hbarsquared

Quantum Chronomancer
So it's strictly worse than using just a longsword.

But... it should be strictly worse. I actually expected it to be worse than that.

TWF allows you to take out twice the "minions."

TWF allows you to inflict twice the conditions (poisoned, magic effects, etc).

TWF gives you versatility (slashing and bludgeoning, melee and ranged)

Minus 0.5 damage, or even 1 or 1.5 damage, in a round seems worth it to me for the versatility. And if you don't want to attack twice, don't.

Sounds good to me.

I just hope there is a clarification of sneak attack-like maneuvers applying to only one of the attacks and not being halved.
 

VinylTap

First Post
Things I'd like to see ...

-no penalties for different weapons
-lots of options for weapons choices
-Low feat requirement, at least for early levels, I'm not against a feat tree to keep it competitive at latter levels.
-Even math between the equipment options at all levels

Ferratus: that may hold balanced for early levels, but I'm curious what happens when you throw a pair of magic weapons on a TWF fighter.
 

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