D&D (2024) Types of Magic - Arcane, Divine, and Primal?

[Mistwell]

Dividing spells up into Arcane, Divine, and Primal got left behind in early playtests. The 2024 PHB uses class-based spell lists similar to how 2014 PHB treats things.

In general there is still some thematic impact of the Arcane, Divine, and Primal lists, like how Magical Secrets for Bards or Magic Initiate feats can only select from the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell lists (being the archetypes of Divine, Primal, and Arcane spells, respectively). But there is no official definition of these three spell types anywhere in the book.

Noteworthy, all abilities which let you choose a spell from another list include just Cleric, Druid, or Wizard which appear to be the new substitute for Divine, Primal and Arcane. Paladin-specific, Ranger-specific, Warlock-Specific, and Sorcerer-Specific spells are generally not accessible to other classes.

 

[Minigiant]

designed by who? Certainly not the designers, as they intentionally removed it from the books.

The designers.

Crawford said they designed the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid spells lists as Arcane, Divine, and Primal spell lists.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The EK can pick up compelled duel via fey-touched because it's an enchantment unless stipulations have been added to fey-touched (or shadow touched).

Bards couldn't just "pilfer signature spells" faster than paladins or rangers because paladins and rangers have most of them before bards even get magical secrets at 10th level. Realistically it was only only 4th and 5th level spells, and that was still unlikely given the cleric and wizard spells that normally take priority over paladin or ranger spells. It was an edge case argument.

Not sure where you're getting "better" from. Earlier is possible with 4th and 5th level spells in those cases but not better. With the compelled duel example a bard could pick it up at 10th level even though a paladin had it at 2nd level and the spell does the exact same thing.

It was an issue with spells like Destructive wave, Find Greater Steed and Swift Quiver etc. The Bard used to not only get earlier access to those spells, but also cast them at higher levels if they improved with upcasting.

 

[ECMO3]

I think these "types of magic" were demphasized in 5E and that is a good thing IMO. I think we just need "magic", we have class-based lists and the different schools to catagorize it further. I always found "divine" and "arcane" to be distracting in play.

 

[Ashrym]

It was an issue with spells like Destructive wave, Find Greater Steed and Swift Quiver etc. The Bard used to not only get earlier access to those spells, but also cast them at higher levels if they improved with upcasting.

Which is still an edge case. 4th and 5th level spells might be taken at 10th level, but at 14th and 18th levels bards were taking higher level spells from 6th thru 9th level that don't exist for paladins and rangers at all.

The entire argument is based on the off chance a bard might take a paladin or ranger spell instead of another spell, and that spell might be capable of being used better in a higher level slot.

 

[ECMO3]

Noteworthy, all abilities which let you choose a spell from another list include just Cleric, Druid, or Wizard which appear to be the new substitute for Divine, Primal and Arcane. Paladin-specific, Ranger-specific, Warlock-Specific, and Sorcerer-Specific spells are generally not accessible to other classes.

I know Crawford said this in an interview, but it is not actually followed in practice anywhere except the Magic Initiate feat (and Paladin and Rager spells were never an option there anyway) and the Bard Magic Secrets.

Off the top of my head Vengence Paladin-Hunter's Mark, Old One Warlock - Dissonant Whispers, Infernal Tiefling-Hellish Rebuke, Ancients Paladin-Ensnaring Strike all are available off-class.

This is in addition to Fey Touched and Shadow Touched feats which allow for a number of Paladin, Ranger, Warlock and Bard specific spells.

 

[ECMO3]

It was an issue with spells like Destructive wave, Find Greater Steed and Swift Quiver etc. The Bard used to not only get earlier access to those spells, but also cast them at higher levels if they improved with upcasting.

I love Destructive Wave, but I've never actually had it on a Paladin. I have had it on several Clerics and Bards.

In terms of thematics, I don't really consider that iconically Paladin though. Thematically I think it sounds more like a Sorcerer or Warlock spell.

 

[Mistwell]

I know Crawford said this in an interview, but it is not actually followed in practice anywhere except the Magic Initiate feat (and Paladin and Rager spells were never an option there anyway) and the Bard Magic Secrets.

Off the top of my head Vengence Paladin-Hunter's Mark, Old One Warlock - Dissonant Whispers, Infernal Tiefling-Hellish Rebuke, Ancients Paladin-Ensnaring Strike all are available off-class.

This is in addition to Fey Touched and Shadow Touched feats which allow for a number of Paladin, Ranger, Warlock and Bard specific spells.

Yes which is why I said generally. You say it's not actually followed and then name I think all of the general abilities, which were Magic Initiate and Magic Secrets. The remainder are a handful of specific spells from specific sub-classes, two of which are Paladin which is one of the very classes we're talking about. And Fey Touched and Shadow Touched each give you I believe ONE siloed spell each, and it's first level only.

Sure seems like the general rule is Druid, Cleric and Wizard represent Primal, Divine and Wizard and most spells outside those three lists are IN GENERAL no longer available outside the classes themselves. A handful of class-specific spells can be obtained but they're all limited and low level.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes which is why I said generally. You say it's not actually followed and then name I think all of the general abilities, which were Magic Initiate and Magic Secrets. The remainder are a handful of specific spells from specific sub-classes, two of which are Paladin which is one of the very classes we're talking about. And Fey Touched and Shadow Touched each give you I believe ONE siloed spell each, and it's first level only.

I think the feats are a general ability and think more players will have one of them then will have magic secrets, and you are right it is up to one spell each on ST and FT.

My only point is they did not really do what they claimed. IMO this was probably an oversight and the intent was to do what Crawford claimed, but then they forgot to look at those abilities/feats. I don't think they spent a lot of time editing and proofing some of the changes (maybe because they fired a lot of the staff?). I think if they had paid more attention to detail, at a minimum they would have reworded FT/ST and probably would have changed the subclasses too. I think they also overlooked this specifically when they changed Wrathful Smite to a necromancy spell.

I really like what I have seen of the new rules and I am excited to try out a few builds. But they appear to be rather sloppy and haphazardly put together and I think this is one example of it - it is important to protect these iconic thematic spells, and then we let other classes access them in numerous ways.

 

[Mistwell]

I think the feats are a general ability and think more players will have one of them then will have magic secrets, and you are right it is up to one spell each on ST and FT.

My only point is they did not really do what they claimed. IMO this was probably an oversight and the intent was to do what Crawford claimed, but then they forgot to look at those abilities/feats. I don't think they spent a lot of time editing and proofing some of the changes (maybe because they fired a lot of the staff?). I think if they had paid more attention to detail, at a minimum they would have reworded FT/ST and probably would have changed the subclasses too. I think they also overlooked this specifically when they changed Wrathful Smite to a necromancy spell.

I really like what I have seen of the new rules and I am excited to try out a few builds. But they appear to be rather sloppy and haphazardly put together and I think this is one example of it - it is important to protect these iconic thematic spells, and then we let other classes access them in numerous ways.

What first level Ranger, Paladin, and Sorcerer silo'ed spells are there which someone could use and want through one of those two feats?