Unarmed combat: you can junk the monk

[Quartz]

I've just done the basic calculations for damage and a fighter with the TWF tree way outdamages the monk:

Fighter 21
BAB +21 => +19 with PTWF
Base Damage = 1d3 = 2
Str 32 (16 base, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement, +5 level boosts) = +11 + Magic Fang (or Greater Magic Weapon) +5 = +16.
Feats = Improved Unarmed Strike, WF, WSpec, MWM, GWF, GWS (= +4 to hit, +6 damage), Improved Critical, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Perfect TWF at L21
So damage = 24 + (2/20 * 48) = 28.8.
8 attacks = 230.4

Monk 21
BAB +16 => +16 Flurry
Base damage = 2d10=11
Str 32 (as fighter) = +11, magic fang / GMW +5 = +16
Feats = Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, GWF.

So damage = 27 + (2/20 * 54) = 32.4
5 attacks = 162

Adjusting for Power Attack just makes it worse. And the fighter can wear armour.

So why take Monk? The useful powers kick in at levels 9-13, granted, but really it's only good for the good saves for the first few levels and Evasion at L2.

So, in 4e, the monk should be junked and merged with the fighter.

 

[Legildur]

If all that you are looking at is damage, then sure.

Mind you, only the Monk gets 1/level uses of Stunning Fist, and a host of other abilities that fighters don't get, access to certain feats regardless of prerequisites, access to a range of (albeit not overly powerful) exotic weapons, and a host of skills and skill points.

Your comparison also fails compare the two classes across all levels, although your conclusion may still hold.

 

[Blackrat]

Ah. And your example monk has only three feats selected. If he decides not to use his flurry and instead also focuses on TWF-feats, what happens? I'm not sure what happens as I can't bother to do the calculations but I suspect that the cap becomes at least thinner. Besides, not all care about damage potential. Some of us like monks because their your eastern wise-guys .

 

[IceFractal]

Also, it should be noted that Flurry stacks with TWF. So the Monk could potentially have 8 attacks, all but two at as good a bonus as the Fighter. Also, as a result of their 2d10 base damage, the Monk will gain a much larger benefit out of anything that increases damage in steps, such as Improved Natural Attack and Enlarge Person.

That said, of course the Monk isn't the heaviest damage-dealing class, but neither is the Fighter. At least the Monk has mobility and skills to make up for it.

 

[Blue]

Okay, a few points:
* Strength is halved for off-hand, so the fighter does 8 less for four of those attacks.
* Counting criticals at level 21 is risky at best.
* You aren't counting chance to hit - the monk's flurry with a triple "best attack" vs. the fighter TWF with a single best attack for each hand and a higher BAB - I'd have to do the math to see which way it falls.
* Fight a creature with DR, and the monk will be able to ignore it in many circumstances, while the fighter won't. DR 10 would really hurt that damage output.
* Fighter d10 HD vs. monk d8 HD and AC bonuses. With Wisdom plus the per-level bonuses, the monk's AC will be 10 or so higher then a fighter with the same dex and same items at that level.
* FAQ says that monks have use TWF in addition to flurry. That would be three feats, but the monk could get up to eight as well. (3 base + 2 flurry + 3 offhand) Since they don't hit the 4th iterative attack, they don't need perfect TWF.
* Trolling isn't fun.

 

[Gort]

* Fighter d10 HD vs. monk d8 HD and AC bonuses. With Wisdom plus the per-level bonuses, the monk's AC will be 10 or so higher then a fighter with the same dex and same items at that level.

Not if the fighter wears armour and enchants it, it won't.

 

[szilard]

So, in 4e, the monk should be junked and merged with the fighter.

Ignoring the one-dimensional nature of your analysis, what does an analysis of 3.5e mechanics have to do with 4e, anyway?

-Stuart

 

[Nightchilde-2]

Whatcha gonna do with all that junk, all that junk inside that monk?

Sorry....couldn't resist.

 

[Felon]

There are all kinds of ways to build character, not one optimal build that makes the choices of feats and magic items clear-cut. I think the OP's tone of finality belies that.

Having said that, does the monk have issures? Hell yeah. It's the best arguement for the role-oriented approach of 4e. It may be ibothersome hat the druid can field every position on his team, but it's downright lousy that a monk is challenged at fielding any of them. The way I'd sum them up now would be "defenders with bad hit points and AC". Their saving throws and class features make them resistant to a lot of attack types, they just can't absorb much in the way of actual damage.

 

[blargney the second]

Superior Unarmed Strike will shift the scale more towards the fighter.