Unarmed Spring Attack?

[kengar]

From the SRD:

Benefit

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

(emphasis mine)

Is this wording intended to prohibit unarmed attacks as well as ranged attacks with SA? I know ranged attacks has Shot on the Run, but do you need a weapon in hand to SA?

 

[billd91]

I do not think they were trying to exclude unarmed attacks from being included in Spring Attack. Page 139 of the PH says that unarmed attacks are much like attacking with melee weapons except that they usually provoke attacks of opportunity and the damage is usually non-lethal.
Those are the only (conditional) exceptions listed.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Is this wording intended to prohibit unarmed attacks as well as ranged attacks with SA?

Well, it definitely prohibits a ranged attack. It does not prohibit an unarmed strike because that is a weapon. Other unarmed attacks are not weapons, like disarm, trip, or grapple, so those are prohibited (though you could trip or disarm with a weapon).

 

[kengar]

Well, it definitely prohibits a ranged attack. It does not prohibit an unarmed strike because that is a weapon. Other unarmed attacks are not weapons, like disarm, trip, or grapple, so those are prohibited (though you could trip or disarm with a weapon).

Interesting. One of the reasons this came up was that a PC with Spring Attack wanted to move up, grab a helpless PC (paralyzed by a Gel. Cube slam attack), and "spring" back out of the way. We ended up ruling that a successful Grapple (against a helpless foe) would allow him to get a good enough grip on the PC to pull him back. I guess, RAW, that wouldn't have worked then?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Interesting. One of the reasons this came up was that a PC with Spring Attack wanted to move up, grab a helpless PC (paralyzed by a Gel. Cube slam attack), and "spring" back out of the way. We ended up ruling that a successful Grapple (against a helpless foe) would allow him to get a good enough grip on the PC to pull him back. I guess, RAW, that wouldn't have worked then?

Actually, there was a thread not too long ago that talked about carrying creatures:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=180293

That said, I don't think how you ruled it would have worked per RAW for two reasons: (1) the grapple is not a melee weapon and (2) picking up a (helpless) creature IMO should be picking up an item.

PS. (off-topic) The 'buttons' for the editing of messages don't seem to work in FF2.0, and I've enabled all cookies and scripts for enworld.org (I use adblock and no script). Anyone else have this problem? I cannot use the "Link" button because it forgets the text I highlight and then doesn't even insert the link.

 

[billd91]

Interesting. One of the reasons this came up was that a PC with Spring Attack wanted to move up, grab a helpless PC (paralyzed by a Gel. Cube slam attack), and "spring" back out of the way. We ended up ruling that a successful Grapple (against a helpless foe) would allow him to get a good enough grip on the PC to pull him back. I guess, RAW, that wouldn't have worked then?

I doubt I would have allowed the grapple, but I don't see why a grab or any other uarrmed attack wouldn't work. You're taking an attack action with no specification on what exactly that attack action is. It could be a disarm, a trip, or a sunder.
But, even if your movement wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity because of Spring Attack, the attack action you took could still provoke one because you were unarmed and didn't have Improved Unarmed Strike or one of the other special attack actions without having the Improved <whatever> feat.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I doubt I would have allowed the grapple, but I don't see why a grab or any other uarrmed attack wouldn't work. You're taking an attack action with no specification on what exactly that attack action is. It could be a disarm, a trip, or a sunder.

It wouldn't work because you're not attacking with a melee weapon.

 

[billd91]

It wouldn't work because you're not attacking with a melee weapon.

But you could normally do all of these things without a melee weapon as an attack action. You could also normally do these things with Spring Attack if armed with a melee weapon.
So where's the disconnect using it unarmed with Spring Attack?

There is none. Attacking unarmed is just like attacking with a melee weapon with the exceptions listed on page 139 of the PH. Since none of these actions are listed as exceptions, I don't see how they can't be used with Spring Attack.

 

[Infiniti2000]

There is none. Attacking unarmed is just like attacking with a melee weapon with the exceptions listed on page 139 of the PH. Since none of these actions are listed as exceptions, I don't see how they can't be used with Spring Attack.

Because Spring Attack explicitly mentions "melee weapon"?

It does not say "melee attack" which would support your position. The only argument here is whether when you disarm, trip, or grapple someone (unarmed) are you using a melee weapon. Some will argue that you are, but I would disagree. I don't think it's broken in any case, so it's not a bad ruling, it's just not RAW that I can see.

Note that in this scenario, even if you allow it, moving a grapple requires another standard action. More importantly, you have to attack the creature that you want to avoid an AoO from, so regardless the spring attacker would have provoked from the gelatinous hexahedron.

 

[billd91]

Because Spring Attack explicitly mentions "melee weapon"?

It does not say "melee attack" which would support your position. The only argument here is whether when you disarm, trip, or grapple someone (unarmed) are you using a melee weapon. Some will argue that you are, but I would disagree. I don't think it's broken in any case, so it's not a bad ruling, it's just not RAW that I can see.

Note that in this scenario, even if you allow it, moving a grapple requires another standard action. More importantly, you have to attack the creature that you want to avoid an AoO from, so regardless the spring attacker would have provoked from the gelatinous hexahedron.

This is why I wouldn't allow the grapple. But I think the RAW says that the other attacks are fine.

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity: (snip detail)

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

Unarmed Strike Damage: (snip detail).

Dealing Lethal Damage: (snip detail).

Spring Attack may explicitly mention melee weapon, but since the rules on unarmed attacks says they are much the same and lays out the exceptions, I believe that puts us right on the money.