Unconscious and making Reflex saves?

[solkan_uk]

Does it specifically say anywhere that negative HP is unconscious?

I always ruled that it is merely incapacitated, i.e. helpless but not necessarily unaware and unable to speak etc. It allows a lot more deathbed speaches that way.

 

[Thanee]

'Course, if your in negative HP then even if he made his save there is a good chance of fried monk on toast.

How so with Evasion?

@solkan:

DYING (–1 TO –9 HIT POINTS)

When your character’s current hit points drop to between –1 and –9 inclusive, he’s dying.

A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions.

A dying character loses 1 hit point every round. This continues until the character dies or becomes stable (see below).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darkness]

How so with Evasion?

Evasion doesn't work when you're helpless. (PHB, p.41)

 

[Thanee]

Ah, ok...

Heh, funny enough it only says so in the rogue's and monk's description, but not under the magic item ring of evasion.

Bye
Thanee

 

[green slime]

It isn't explicitly listed in the rules. Apart from common sense. An unconscious character cannot reflexively duck, or dodge.

It can be inferred in the rules by checking "Abilities" in the PHB: It lists the monster "Shrieker" as having Dex - . If you check the Shrieker entry, you will see that they have a Reflex save of.... - . The other interseting thing with Shriekers is that they are listed as having "-5 Dex" modifier to Armour Class, inspite of the fact that Dexterity score of "-" should mean a stat modifier of +0.

Of course, having a stat of "-" is different from "0", as witnessed by undead. Yet I am assuming that this Dex strangeness is an oversight. It was actually the rogue in our group that brought this to my attention.

 

[Darkness]

Yeah, the ring also doesn't mention an armor restriction.

I think the ring's text wasn't changed from 3.0, but the helpless restriction was mentioned only in 3.5. (The armor restriction dates back to 3.0, though.)

 

[Darkness]

It lists the monster "Shrieker" as having Dex - . If you check the Shrieker entry, you will see that they have a Reflex save of.... - . The other interseting thing with Shriekers is that they are listed as having "-5 Dex" modifier to Armour Class, inspite of the fact that Dexterity score of "-" should mean a stat modifier of +0.

Of course, having a stat of "-" is different from "0"

Roughly speaking, a stat of 0 means that you're either incapable of actions or dead (Con 0). No creature that I know of has a racial average score of 0 in any ability score. It wouldn't make much sense, considering the implications of a score of 0 (see above). Thus, they have a score of -.

Still, having no Dex doesn't mean you're as easy to hit as a normal target; it means you're as easy to hit as an immobile target (Dex 0). Thus, the -5 to AC is justified IMNSHO.

 

[diaglo]

how did the guards get full attack? with a readied action. or even on the monk opening the door?

was he chasing them?

i think init should've been rolled or surprise.

but anyway...

i'm with darkness on the dex 0 thingie.

 

[green slime]

Roughly speaking, a stat of 0 means that you're either incapable of actions or dead (Con 0). No creature that I know of has a racial average score of 0 in any ability score. It wouldn't make much sense, considering the implications of a score of 0 (see above). Thus, they have a score of -.

Still, having no Dex doesn't mean you're as easy to hit as a normal target; it means you're as easy to hit as an immobile target (Dex 0). Thus, the -5 to AC is justified IMNSHO.

True in general, though there are these differences:

A stat score of "-" means you have a stat modifier of +0 (see undead hit points)
A stat score of "0" means you have a stat modifier of -5
A stat score of "-" is unchanged by an enhancement bonus to the stat.
A stat score of "0" is modified by an enhancement bonus to the stat.

Important differences, if you are a vampire or a shrieker. Therefore, with the qualifier about nonabilities in MM (page 7, under Abilities) Shriekers should be given a Dexterity of "0". Because by their own description, having a Dexterity of "-" lacks any real meaning. Except then they'd get to make Reflex saves at -5.... Without an added rule that Dex 0 means you forfeit your Reflex save.

 

[Thanee]

how did the guards get full attack? with a readied action. or even on the monk opening the door?

was he chasing them?

i think init should've been rolled or surprise.

Maybe they were in the middle of a bigger fight, and the guards had heard the fighting outside and then delayed (as he said).

Bye
Thanee