Unconscious and making Reflex saves?

[Hypersmurf]

An analogy: "In order to drive a car, you must have fuel to operate it, just like any other motor vehicle." If my car has a flat tire and cannot be driven, that doesn't mean my gas tank is empty.

No, but it means that the fuel you have is not sufficient to allow you to drive your car - in fact, no amount of fuel will be sufficient to allow you to drive your car.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

AuraSeer: I'm paraphrasing. Look up Hyp's posts on the subject for the actual text.

Possibly, the text is more like, "You must be able to move," etc.

 

[green slime]

This may be news to some of you, but cars can actually be driven with flat tires. It might not be healthy or wise to do so, but you most definitely can.

However, if the car is falling out of an aeroplane, you cannot drive it. You can sit behind the steering wheel if you wish, but that won't do you much good. Neither will any amount of petrol in the tank have any bearing whatsoever on your predicament.

 

[dvvega]

From the SRD I can only find the following:

1. You are unconscious = helpless + knocked out
2. helpless = Dex 0, can be coup d'graced
3. helpless = no evasion or improved evasion

That's all. So RAW give the unconscious monk a save with Dex 0 and evasion doesn't help.

This feels wrong to me, however its all I can find in the SRD. What it does do is pretty much screw up to a 7th level Monk since their REF save is +5. So I guess the designers thought that Dex 0 is enough of a burden on most people to not make it a guarantee.

Fantasy literature is full of those miraculous survival stories so doing it this way is heroic.

D

 

[Hypersmurf]

AuraSeer: I'm paraphrasing. Look up Hyp's posts on the subject for the actual text.

Possibly, the text is more like, "You must be able to move," etc.

No, it's 'room to move'. But I maintain that if you're paralyzed, no amount of room is 'room to move'.

-Hyp.

 

[HeavyG]

I'm almost alone in this, but I like this rule. It always leaves you a small chance.

It's easy to rationalize, too. In every 5' square of a fireball, there is a combination of space and body position that results in less serious burns - that is established by the normal reflex save for half damage. That reflex save with an effective dex bonus of -5 represents you already being in that position by pure luck (and you'll need a lot of luck to succeed at that save).

I wouldn't allow Evasion, though.

 

[Darkness]

I'm almost alone in this, but I like this rule. It always leaves you a small chance.

I'm with you, FWIW.

 

[jmucchiello]

No, it's 'room to move'. But I maintain that if you're paralyzed, no amount of room is 'room to move'.

That's not logical. Having room to move in this case is not the limiting factor on moving. Consciousness is. An unconscious person in an empty cathedral has lots of room to move. So that is not limiting his ability to move. His lack of consciousness however puts a big crimp in the movement bit.

Although, even then, unconscious people do move. Ever roll over in your sleep? Heard of sleepwalkers? The unconscious mind reacts to external stimuli. And as such it can react to a sudden burst of heat. I'd allow the save at -5 dex mod.

And since he doesn't get his evasion, this conversation is probably moot. He is still most likely toast since half damage or full damage from a fireball is most likely going to put a character in the negatives well below -10. And even though there is that chance that a 5d6 result will come up 5 and he takes only 2 from the fireball, the original post mentioned a barrage of fireballs. Making the reflex save is academic at that point. The minimum damage is still going to kill him.

Unconscious character can make Will and Fortitude saves. No reason to limit Reflex saves.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's easy to rationalize, too. In every 5' square of a fireball, there is a combination of space and body position that results in less serious burns - that is established by the normal reflex save for half damage. That reflex save with an effective dex bonus of -5 represents you already being in that position by pure luck (and you'll need a lot of luck to succeed at that save).

So why doesn't an unattended object get a Reflex Save at -5? Doesn't it have the same chance to be in that 'safe' position?

Why would someone with the Lightning Reflexes feat have a better chance of being in that 'safe' position - while unconscious - than someone without?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Although, even then, unconscious people do move.

No, they don't - not in D&D.

"Unconscious: Knocked out and helpless."
"Helpless: A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0."
"Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all."

No reason to limit Reflex saves.

Except that "A character must have room to move in order to use Evasion, as with a Reflex save for any creature."

If you're paralyzed, no amount of clear space is 'room to move'.

-Hyp.