Unconscious and making Reflex saves?

[diaglo]

Maybe they were in the middle of a bigger fight, and the guards had heard the fighting outside and then delayed (as he said).

Bye
Thanee

that's what i was hoping. but i wasn't going to assume.

 

[Darkness]

Shriekers should be given a Dexterity of "0". Because by their own description, having a Dexterity of "-" lacks any real meaning. Except then they'd get to make Reflex saves at -5.... Without an added rule that Dex 0 means you forfeit your Reflex save.

Hm. Dex 0 = helpless (DMG, p.289). Now, CDG'ing a shrieker isn't very useful (plants are immune to crits) but you would get a +4 to hit it in melee. Its AC is only 8 but then, it's a CR 1 creature; at very low levels, missing AC 8 is possible. Missing AC 8 with a +4 bonus to hit, OTOH, less so.

Also, creatures don't have racial ability scores of 0. It's just not done, for whatever reason. You can house-rule it, of course, and in some cases doing so might even be a good idea, but it doesn't seem to be a part of WotC's design policy. Me, I don't feel strongly about it either way so I'll just go with the status quo.

 

[Shallown]

Your allowed a save even if it is a little silly. This came up in a recent game for our group. I just explained it to the gm to pretend the person had landed in such a way to shield themselves from area affects. A weak explaination but it works well enough within the rules.

Later

 

[qstor]

Wasn't this in the FAQ? I forget the Sage's answer.

Mike

 

[shilsen]

Your allowed a save even if it is a little silly. This came up in a recent game for our group. I just explained it to the gm to pretend the person had landed in such a way to shield themselves from area affects. A weak explaination but it works well enough within the rules.

Later

Just use the "Dude factor" explanation That's the most compatible one with the D&D rules.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actually, I believe that in the past Hyp has brough up the text of the Evasion ability as proof that unconscious (and therefore helpless) creatures don't get Reflex saves (possibly the glossary definition).

Basically, it says "In order to benefit from Evasion, you must have enough room to move, just like all other Reflex saves."

Helpless creatures can't move, therefore they never have enough room to move, therefore they don't get Reflex saves.

Monk gets toasted (and probably killed) on the first incoming fireball, the second through last affect his held and worn objects as if they are unattended (because by this point, the monk is dead).

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Just to be fair

If a character had their Dex score reduced to 0, it wouldn't result in just a -5 to their reflex save because that -5 is replacing their regular Dex bonus to the save. So the net penalty would be the -5 plus the loss of their regular Dex bonus. Example being a character with an 18 Dex would no longer have a +4 they would have a -9.

To me, that can be a pretty significant penalty (especially if the character has a high Dex score) which might all but guarantee they fail the save.

J from Three Haligonians

 

[RigaMortus]

Was everyone in initiative when this happened? Otherwise, the guards could not "ready" or "delay" their actions.

 

[AuraSeer]

Basically, it says "In order to benefit from Evasion, you must have enough room to move, just like all other Reflex saves."
Helpless creatures can't move, therefore they never have enough room to move, therefore they don't get Reflex saves.

That doesn't logically follow. The fact that you can't take actions does not imply that you have no room to move.

An analogy: "In order to drive a car, you must have fuel to operate it, just like any other motor vehicle." If my car has a flat tire and cannot be driven, that doesn't mean my gas tank is empty.

I do agree with your conclusion; IMO it would be silly for an unconscious creature to get a Reflex save. But the rule you quoted does not prevent that, and I can't find anything else in the RAW that does either. We know it wouldn't be the first time the rules allowed something silly.

 

[Geoff Watson]

I think he should get the save, with his Dex mod being -5. There's no rule against it.
Maybe he just got lucky, and that part of the fireball wasn't so hot, or the floor he's lying on protected his vulnerable bits.

Give him a chance, he's in enough trouble anyway.

Geoff.