Unconscious and making Reflex saves?

[HeavyG]

So why doesn't an unattended object get a Reflex Save at -5? Doesn't it have the same chance to be in that 'safe' position?

Why would someone with the Lightning Reflexes feat have a better chance of being in that 'safe' position - while unconscious - than someone without?

Oh, I'm not saying that my position is rationally inescapable. Either side of the coin has logical flaws, I'm just choosing the side I'm most comfortable with and then justifying it after the fact.

Although if you really want to justify it, maybe the God of Destiny doesn't care about mere objects. And I might remove the save bonus of Lightning Reflexes if it came up, though that 1) would never happen since I've never seen a PC take that feat ever and 2) that would clearly not be RAW.

 

[Abraxas]

So why doesn't an unattended object get a Reflex Save at -5? Doesn't it have the same chance to be in that 'safe' position?

Well this brings up the question "Why does an unattended magic item always get a saving throw?" (except when the spell doesn't allow a saving throw)

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Well this brings up the question "Why does an unattended magic item always get a saving throw?" (except when the spell doesn't allow a saving throw)

'Cos magic items are "dudes", like PCs.

BTW Hype, I think drawing the conclusion that you don't get a Reflex saving throw if you're unconscious from a throw-away tail-end to a sentence about evasion is drawing a long bow.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well this brings up the question "Why does an unattended magic item always get a saving throw?" (except when the spell doesn't allow a saving throw)

I'd be inclined to say that the unattended magic item is not disallowed its save merely for being an object... but that since it can't move, it can't make Reflex Saves. It's not the object rule that's preventing the save.

(Though it could be argued, I suppose, that this would only apply to Intelligent items, since the Evasion rule specifies that it's as with a Reflex save for any creature, and non-intelligent items aren't creatures...)

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

BTW Hype, I think drawing the conclusion that you don't get a Reflex saving throw if you're unconscious from a throw-away tail-end to a sentence about evasion is drawing a long bow.

It's not drawing a long bow at all. It's a crossbow.

Specifically, crossbow, heavy, 3E PHB p100.

-Hyp.

 

[Abraxas]

I'd be inclined to say that the unattended magic item is not disallowed its save merely for being an object... but that since it can't move, it can't make Reflex Saves. It's not the object rule that's preventing the save.

Well, I might agree with you if the text didn't say "Magic items always get saving throws." There is no condition "except reflex saves because they can't move."

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, I might agree with you if the text didn't say "Magic items always get saving throws." There is no condition "except reflex saves because they can't move."

It doesn't say "unless the effect doesn't allow one in the first place", either...

-Hyp.

 

[Abraxas]

I was fairly certain you would bring that up
I almost edited my post to include that bit just to save you the trouble, but I was watching Good Eats and got distracted.

But It seems less of a leap than your reflex save argument

 

[Li Shenron]

I would allow the Reflex save for an unconscious character.

Should a character with Lightning Reflexes use the +2 when unconscious? Should an unconscious Rogue be better than an unconscious Wizard at saving from a Fireball? Probably not.

On the other hand, what about a character with an item that grants a luck bonus to saving throws, should LUCK be negated when you're sleeping? Cover gives a bonus to Reflex saves because it increases your chances not to get caught in the blast, even if you're bound in chains behind that cover; if the Monk here had almost-but-not-quite-total cover, would he still have no save?

All in all, it seems to me that different rationales play part in the concept of a Reflex save, and I bet that different authors/designers/sages/customerservices have ruled very different things in time because each of them has its different idea of what a reflex save should be.
(It's a similar thing as the occasional contraddictions with flanking: half the designers conceive flanking a vision problem, the other half conceive it as a position problem.)

For that reason I really don't want to read too much into a sentence which, when talking about a specific thing (Evasion), it infers a general rule which isn't mentioned in other places... I just don't know what had the writer in mind when he wrote that.
And about objects, why don't they get saving throws? I think the reason is simply that designers thought: "who cares about objects?" until someone pointed out "well, I care about a magic sword...", "you're right, magic objects should get saving throws, let's explain it because they're magic".

What I mean to say here is that I would never think my DM is "wrong" if he allowed no ST in this case, I'd just be fine with it. But when I am the DM instead, I don't either consider myself "wrong" because I allow it. I can see common sense in both ways. Probably there's slightly less sense in my choice, but I have other reasons to do so.

 

[diaglo]

It's not drawing a long bow at all. It's a crossbow.

Specifically, crossbow, heavy, 3E PHB p100.

-Hyp.

which the most broken place to put that rule about twf for missile weapons.