Unconscious and making Reflex saves?
- Thread starter Marimmar@Home
- Start date
Unconscious characters are helpless.
Do helpless characters get saves?
Yes.
"Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die."
It's pretty clear from this that characters get saving thows when helpless.
Now, someone could argue that they could get Will and Fort saves, but not Reflex saves. However, the precedence for helpless characters getting saves is in the book. There are no rules (tmk) about helpless characters not getting saves, but there are rules for characters getting saves.
"Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The Saving Throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work."
Hence, if the spell states that you get a save, you get a save. The only exception listed in RAW is if you want to voluntary forego your save and that is not the case here.
If there is no explicit rule about not getting saves under certain conditions (helpless, pinned, staggered, whatever), then you always get a save (assuming a non-"harmless" spell that allows for a save).
As for the "room to move" argument (presumably in the PHB glossary, I do not have my PHB with me), I would have to see the exact text. If it does come from the glossary, then it is not so much a rule as it is an explanation for how Evasion works, not how Reflex saves work, and I would not consider it binding. But, that's just me.
I think Li Shenron put it best:
"For that reason I really don't want to read too much into a sentence which, when talking about a specific thing (Evasion), it infers a general rule which isn't mentioned in other places..."
Do helpless characters get saves?
Yes.
"Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die."
It's pretty clear from this that characters get saving thows when helpless.
Now, someone could argue that they could get Will and Fort saves, but not Reflex saves. However, the precedence for helpless characters getting saves is in the book. There are no rules (tmk) about helpless characters not getting saves, but there are rules for characters getting saves.
"Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The Saving Throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work."
Hence, if the spell states that you get a save, you get a save. The only exception listed in RAW is if you want to voluntary forego your save and that is not the case here.
If there is no explicit rule about not getting saves under certain conditions (helpless, pinned, staggered, whatever), then you always get a save (assuming a non-"harmless" spell that allows for a save).
As for the "room to move" argument (presumably in the PHB glossary, I do not have my PHB with me), I would have to see the exact text. If it does come from the glossary, then it is not so much a rule as it is an explanation for how Evasion works, not how Reflex saves work, and I would not consider it binding. But, that's just me.
I think Li Shenron put it best:
"For that reason I really don't want to read too much into a sentence which, when talking about a specific thing (Evasion), it infers a general rule which isn't mentioned in other places..."
diaglo said:
Particularly since Ready only allows you to ready a Standard, Move or Free Action. I'm all for allowing Dex 0 reflex saves to unconscious characters. Perhaps by chance the character was lying in such a way that clothing protected the character from the majority of the blast. I use the same reasoning for a rogue taking no damage from a fireball right on top of him. He ducked to the floor, folded his clothing around all exposed areas, etc.
Pinotage
Izerath
First Post
Your monk got screwed.
"You can ready a standard action, a move action or a free action." [PH 160]
""The most common type of standard action is an attack - a single melee or ranged attack." [PH 138]
If those guards had READIED actions, then they should not have had full attacks. The RAW are quite clear that you cannot use Full Attack as a readied action.
If on the other hand it was during the normal course of their initiative sequence and the fighters were positioned within 5' of the entering monk, well then, he's toast.
Oddly enough, DELAYING would indeed result in the fighter's having full attack's.
My only question now is "How did the fighter's know you were coming? Were they on alert? Warned of intruders? Or did you try to surprise them?"
It seems a little suspicious to me that they were as prepared as they were.....there must have been some reaosn for it.....?
diaglo said:
"You can ready a standard action, a move action or a free action." [PH 160]
""The most common type of standard action is an attack - a single melee or ranged attack." [PH 138]
If those guards had READIED actions, then they should not have had full attacks. The RAW are quite clear that you cannot use Full Attack as a readied action.
If on the other hand it was during the normal course of their initiative sequence and the fighters were positioned within 5' of the entering monk, well then, he's toast.
Oddly enough, DELAYING would indeed result in the fighter's having full attack's.
My only question now is "How did the fighter's know you were coming? Were they on alert? Warned of intruders? Or did you try to surprise them?"
It seems a little suspicious to me that they were as prepared as they were.....there must have been some reaosn for it.....?
Last edited:
Izerath said:
Yes, I thought about it on the way home. Delaying in this situation just didn't seem right. It looks like you're delaying and waiting for a certain event rather than simply biding your time. I think this was more a case for 'Ready' than 'Delay', IMO. Otherwise there doesn't seem to be any point for Ready if you can Delay with the aim to respond to a certain event. And given that they're delaying, how could they have acted since they were delaying and not waiting for the door to open (a Ready)? Seems a bit strange to me, but maybe I just don't understand the distinction. Either a Ready or surprise would've been more appropriate, both with only a standard action.
Pinotage
Izerath
First Post
Exactly - Ready allows your action to occur BEFORE the trigger event, while Delay actions occur AFTER an event. In this case, the fighters would have had to KNOW you were coming, waited until you acted and THEN taken their actions.
Their actions in this case certainly don't sound logical to me. How did they know that only the monk would run in? What would have happened if you laid waste to them after you opened the door with a knock spell? Their delayed actions never would have occurred.
What they did is a VERY RISKY gamble to take for a defensive position. It certainly smacks of foresight or meta-gaming. I suppose the real clarification we need to understand more is "Did the monk's movement get interrupted by the attacks from the guards?" If Yes, then someone didn't play by the rules....if No, then the monk was flat out stupid for running into a room full of waiting fighters.....
Last edited:
Geoff Watson
First Post
Hypersmurf said:
What's wrong with it being under crossbow?
You can use a crossbow in one hand, you can't use other missile weapons like bows in one hand.
Geoff.
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