Understanding Alignment

True drama, as opposed to melodrama, is to be found in shades of gray; in human beings acting not like embodiments of good or evil but like human beings, in partial victories and losses, in ambiguous conflict without a clear resolution.
Heh... I think D&D campaigns are lucky if they aspire to the heights of decent melodrama.

Also, don't knock melodrama! :) It can be a lovely thing. Look at the recent Battlestar Galatica. It was firmly grounded in high-flying melodramatics (The Chief/Helo/Sharon/Eight, Starbuck and Apollo, Baltar/Six, Adama/Tigh). Would a more realistic approach to drama really served the show any better?

When you're working in genres where you can kiss and make up with the formerly evil robots that nuked your civilization out of existence, or make amends with your dad even though he tortured his daughter (and your sister), not to mention, murdered everyone on her entire home planet as a threat, you shouldn't be afraid to indulge your penchant for melodramatics.
 

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Of course, an evil cultist can sacrifice everything for others as well. The selfless fanatical minion who sacrifices himself for his master/cult/cause is a clear evil archetype IMO.
Of course, what is the goal of his master/cult/cause? And why would he NEED to sacrifice himself for his master/cult/cause?
 

Of course, what is the goal of his master/cult/cause? And why would he NEED to sacrifice himself for his master/cult/cause?

If its the evil archetype then the goal is something evil or bad in some way "Universal peace. Under my iron-booted heel."

Need? The more dedicated he is the more he sacrifices for his cause? An attept to show how dedicated he is? The heroes who oppose the master/cult/cause need to be impaired? The master/cult/cause requires it? The need for sacrifice is great?

Why does he feel he needs to? Brainwashed? Deluded? Volitionally choosing to do so? Hopes for an afterlife reward? Dedication to the cause? Spite? Fulfill a vow? Gratitude? Patriotism? Religious conviction?

"I give my life and soul to the service of Heironeous and sacrifice X in his name" is sacrificing for a good god.
"I give my life and soul to the service of Hextor and sacrifice X in his name" is sacrificing for an evil god.
 

If its the evil archetype then the goal is something evil or bad in some way "Universal peace. Under my iron-booted heel."
Well then his goal does'nt sound like it involves sanctity of life and liberty which are both good causes. Peace, good. Under iron-booted heel, bad. Of course then there is lawful good, but even then the laws involve protecting indvidual freedoms and life. The fact that most of the pop. actually likes the laws helps too.
 

Well then his goal does'nt sound like it involves sanctity of life and liberty which are both good causes. Peace, good. Under iron-booted heel, bad. Of course then there is lawful good, but even then the laws involve protecting indvidual freedoms and life. The fact that most of the pop. actually likes the laws helps too.

Freedom's not part of D&D good.:)

My point is that selfless sacrifice for others doesn't make someone good. You can be a selfless martyr to a bad cause or an evil god.

Its half the definition of what a good character does in 3e though.

"Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others."

Helping others is not what good characters do, it is making personal sacrifices to help others. Someone who helps others but does not make personal sacrifices is not good.
 

Things I did like about alignment:

I like the straightforward mostly unambiguous mechanics of a lot of 3e alignment as descriptor based effects for magic and creatures, i.e. holy weapons do +2d6 damage when striking evil alignment creatures and are considered good for purposes of DR/Good.

I like the story elements of a tangible supernatural Evil, Good, Law, Chaos. Devils are creatures of Law and Evil while tyrants are just mortal guys with an LE alignment. Detect evil being about power, type of connection to an alignment, and team affiliation instead of comparative rightness or wrongness of things in a moral sense is very my style.

Definitions are loose enough I can be fine with pretty much any alignment with any character. I can let players self identify and not worry about adjudicating conformity with artificial standards when I DM. While I dislike alignment limitations in classes I can have players who think they are the best part of the game and we can enjoyably play together (since I can play nonrestricted classes when they DM).
 

awesomeocalypse, I'm going to pick on you because you write long posts and I like people who write long and meaty posts. Please understand that the following is nothing personal, but that I feel that on one hand you are representative of a type and on the other hand clearly intelligent enough to defend yourself as a worthy opponent.

Alignment was a clunky and often nonsensical behavioral straightjacket for players...That doesn't mean I don't lend morality any weight in-game. I just do so in a more organic and interesting way.

One thing that I find annoying about people who decry alignment as an absolute and objective straight jacket is that they tend do so in such absolutist and objectivist terms without providing the slightest bit of evidence or even much in the way of proof that they even understand what alignment is. In fact, I'm often impressed with how little they are able to express exactly what it is that they mean by ethics and morality in general.

Take a look at artifacts for instance. In previous editions, they were explicitly linked to a certain alignment. But in 4e they just have personalities, which have goals much more specific and interesting than merely being "aligned",

The problem with this is that in previous editions, these artifacts might also have had goals and personalities and in fact frequently - when these artifacts were described in any detail - did indeed have goals and personalities. Having an alignment does nothing to prevent one from having a goal or a personality, but having an alignment tells us something about a personality that we might not otherwise now. Take such goals as "Bringing lawbreakers to justice" or of "Protecting the innocent". Such goals tells us little of whether we are dealing with Superman, Batman, Rorshach, or The Punisher. We only may tell the difference when we begin to talk about different ethical values which underly the various persons, and eventually if we systemize those goals to any degree we are going to come up with some sort of 'alignment system'. The system we choose might not be the two axis system of classic D&D, but it will be a system.

May I suggest that one possible crux of the matter is whether or not you believe ethics and morals can be described in a systematic way at all. Let's return to that in a bit.

An artifact might be a relic of a people wholly devoted to trade and commerce, and would reward its bearer for engaging in trade, but punish them if they merely hoarded all of their possessions or if they used thievery to bypass honest commerce. IMO thats a much more interesting approach to introducing some sort of moral standard into the game than merely declaring an item "good" and saying it will only work with "good" people. What does good mean, anyway?

Let me also suggest that that is another possible crux of the matter. One of the biggest problems in any systematic description of ethics or morality is that people will tend to disagree over what actions belong in the bucket we want to label 'good' and the bucket we want to label 'evil'. I've never really seen this as a huge problem, but I can see why some people find it a stumbling block. For me, so long as the world's owner describes what belongs in each bucket for his world, it doesn't bother me that his conception of what belongs in each bucket does not correspond to my personal real world ethics and beliefs. For others, it matters very much to them that there character not only acts in the way that they call good (or evil if they prefer) but that they recieve the label that they think that they deserve for those actions. For my part, it only matters that I'm warned ahead of time what to expect.

Does an orc shaman who has spent his life healing those of his tribe think of himself as "evil"?

Leaving aside the specific example for which we have insufficient information to make an answer of any sort, here is another possible difficulty. I can put it no more plainly than saying, "Does it matter what you think of your own actions?" Surely very very few people indeed think ill of themselves, but what does that matter? Surely far more people do evil than like to think of themselves as evil. Surely evil can feel it has the best of motives.

A specific artifact or person or god might have an idea of what is good, but there is no universal absolute, which is the way it should be.

Once again, we reach a point where a value judgment is being made. We are told that there being no univeral absolute is, 'the way it should be'.

But those godly teachings are never so broad and simplistic as merely being "lawful good" or "chaotic evil". Instead, each god has highly specific goals and things they care about.

But again, in earlier additions of D&D no diety when described ever had such broad and simplistic teachings nor lacked for highly specific goals or particular things that they cared about. Why this pretence that such things were lacking in earlier editions and are novel when introduced?

But in a recent campaign, one of our adventures involved a lord whose daughter had fled an impending marriage to be with her true love, a member of a rival nation. The lord asked us to get her back, but when we reached her, she offered us a different reward to help her and her beloved flee. A few in our party were all for helping her escape to be with the one she loved...but not our Paladin of Bahumut. He figured that Bahumut values order over mere passion and emotion, and would never approve of forsaking a promise like a betrothal in order to follow the whims of one's heart--the noble thing to do would be to suck it up and try one's best to fulfill the promise even if it made one unhappy. We ended up hauling her back kicking and screaming. On the old alignment scale, this might have prompted a long argument over which course of action was the closest to "lawful good" behavior. But in this game, that wasn't relevant, only one god's particular interpretation of "good", which didn't necessarily conform to our modern conceptions.

I fail to see how this was any different than an older edition of D&D except that you've perhaps gotten mature enough not to argue about it in a meta-game way. Valuing order, duty, responsibility, obedience to family and so forth over passion and emotion is a description of 'lawful' over 'chaotic' broadly accepted by virtually everyone that has ever taken a stab at describing the goals of the two competing ideologies. Why in the world should we think this a conflict over what 'good' is, I cannot tell except to say that perhaps the problem is that 'modern conceptions' of good are perhaps biased to one side of the lawful/chaotic question. After all, we no longer believe in the goodness of arranged marriages nor do we think that a parent forbidding one to marry should have the slightest constraint on someone's actions, yet I think on reflection that we would not want to condemn a society that thought that way (say modern South Korea) as being intrinsicly 'evil' for thinking that.

This is, in my mind, a far superior approach to handling moral questions than a built in "objective" system.

Leaving aside the fact that I don't think you've actually discovered a new approach compared to the older system of handling moral questions, note again the bias towards 'objective' systems.

A classic example of the murkiness/overall uselessness of alignment is to try to place most American presidents on an alignment scale.

Before we look at your puzzle, I'd like to note that the real murkiness and uselessness of this sort of question is related to a problem not found within roleplaying games - the incompleteness of information possessed by the persons seeking to answer the question. The major reason IMO we have difficulties answering the question, "What alignment is Batman?" or "What alignment is JFK?" is that every answerer tends to have a different incomplete picture of the character or person who is being put to the test. In the case of 'What alignment is Batman', almost everyone knows who Batman is generally, and is acquainted perhaps with one or three or ten of his adventures, but few of us are so well read as to be acquainted with all of his adventures. You can always tell those that have something approaching expertise in the subject when they answer, "Which one?", because Batman's presentation has evolved and forked in some many miriad ways that we can't realistically call him one consistant character. And, even if we were the expert on Batman, we should never really know all about Batman from the pages of his adventures. The problem with JFK is even more acute, for even if we were a world reknowned expert on JFK, we should know him less well for all that than the average fan boy knows Batman because JFK remains an enigma to history shrouded in secrecy, debate, legend, and mystery, but most of all because we have no real window into JFK's private mental life. There is no definitive account of anyone's life which we may be privy to.

But for all of that, your puzzle is interesting for an entirely different reason than the intended one:

For example, JFK: on the one hand a war hero who bravely risked his own life to save others

What does that have to do with alignment at all? Surely we'd have to know why he did it to say anything about his alignment?

a champion of the poor and downtrodden who laid the groundwork for the Civil Rights act

Again, what does that have to do with alignment at all? Surely we'd have to know why he did it to say anything about his alignment, and surely it is particularly murky knowing the real motive behind the public good acts of a public politician whose success rests on acheiving a certain effect and reputation with the public.

an inspiring and charismatic speaker who far more than anyone else of his generation clearly articulated the ideals by which a modern America should live and act

Again, what does that have to do with alignment at all? This is perhaps the shoddiest evidence of the bunch, because why in the world should be believe being charismatic or inspiring or idealistic is attached to any one alignment at all. It would be like saying, "Which alignment was JFK, well to begin with, he was handsome..." or judging someone's alignment by their atheleticism. It shows in my opinion an utter failure to even consider what alignment means to even provide such as 'evidence' of the murkiness of alignment, which is what makes it so irritating to see it dismissed out of hand and with such an air of self-assurance.

and a shrewd negotiator who helped to avert disaster during the Cuban Missille crisis.

And again, leaving aside that you've just passed a judgment on a very contriversial period of history that would not be universally agreed with, what does shrewdness have to do with alignment?

On the other: a rampant philanderer who, despite his ostensible support for both Catholicism and women's rights, made no discernible effort to keep to his marriage vows

At last you finally provide somthing that most people would consider has something to do with alignment, and here we can finally pass something like an ethical judgment. Either the man found a great deal of difficulty doing what he professed to believe, or as seems more likely whatever else can be said about him, he wasn't "lawful" since he didn't actually follow the external code of laws (Catholicism in this case) he professed to believe. (Hopefully we can mostly agree that Catholicism is 'lawful', and I leave it as uninteresting to this debate whether you find it 'good' or 'evil' or 'neither'.)

a pampered rich kid who used his father's gangster connections to vote the cemetaries in Chicago, thus stealing a presidential election

Once again you've pronounced judgement over an episode of history which even historians would disagree over, but leaving aside that we again find some evidence that either JFK had extreme difficulty living up to yet another aspect of his professed external ethical code (in this case American Law), or else whatever else we may say about him, he is not Lawful.

and a naive and arrogant commander who approved a cockamamie scheme to use the CIA to overthrow the Cuban government, resulting in thousands upon thousands of deaths.

Let me make one other point about this historical snippet: not only did he approve the scheme, but, at the point of implementing it, he had second thoughts and renigged upon his promises to those who he'd caught up in the scheme, resulting just as you say in thousands upon thousands of deaths. So, whatever we may say about JFK, we can be sure that he did not highly value his word or duties he'd imposed upon himself even if it meant leaving those people who trusted him to their deaths, and once again this suggests someone who is not lawful as it is commonly understood. Now, note that I'm not suggesting here that it wasn't the 'right' decision, nor am I passing any judgement on him. For all you know of me personally, I might be an evil fiend that respects a person more for sending people to their deaths and believes that treachery and murder are the marks of what is truly good. I'm merely stating that JFK's actions in the light of the commonly understood meaning of the bucket labeled 'lawful' don't seem to fit in it. And, further that if in fact JFK was in that bucket, it suggests someone who had the hardest time following the precepts he actually believed in. It is therefore much easier for me to believe he didn't actually believe those precepts strongly, and had some deeper real motivations and goals which we might could tease out if we had fuller knowledge of JFK.

Do his successes make him good, or do his failings make him evil

What in the world does success or failure have to do with alignment?

That seems oddly unfocused for a man with such a distinct ideology.

Distinct ideology? Could you say what in the world it is, because I haven't a clue. Which is in fact the problem with abandoning a systematic description, because having abandoned it, we are left with the need to provide a description anyway and doing that is no easier than providing a systematic description in the first place. I mean really, can we conclude what JFK's real goals were with any more precision and general agreement than we can conclude what alignment he had?

Life is not a morality play.

But, there is nothing that prevents a fantasy role playing game from being one. And in particular, even if you fantasy RPG is nothing like 'Disneyesque moral paragons running around killing Nazi Demon serial killers', it's going to probably be a morality play of a sort it just may have very different meanings than some other morality play. After all, a play which means, "Good is relative and the truth is murky.", is still a morality play. And even more importantly, unlike real life, in an RPG we never ever lack perfect information about the characters within. The DM has perfect knowledge of every NPC. He knows their innermost thoughts and convictions. He never has to doubt what there goals, motives, and beliefs are. Likewise, the player has perfect knowledge of the PC. So why should we find ourselves in any difficulty comparable to knowing the alignment of a real person?

In my campaigns, nearly every being with more than a basic level of intelligence has a motivation--and that motivation is hardly ever that they want to be "good" or "evil".

Doesn't it strike you that this is a ridiculous statement? Since when did being 'good' or 'evil' deprive one of motivations?

I'm not interested in a guard who mindlessly attacks the pcs because he's on the evil side

Your strawman is so thin that I wonder you can even make a scarecrow of it.

I'm not interested in the impecabbly virtuous cleric who heals the pcs because its the good thing to do, I'm interested in the cleric who seems impecabbly virtuous, but also relentlessly pursues political power for her church and so extracts certain favors for healing--which of course to her is a "good" action, because she believes her god to be good. I'm not interested in a "good" nation at war with an "evil" empire, I'm interested in two competing countries, each with some legitimate grievances and made up of many diverse people, good and bad. I'm less interested in easy moral "questions" like "should we kill the evil guy?" with clearcut answers like "hell yes", than I am in posing legitimate dilemnas like, "should we help out these settlers in wiping out the orcs who've been raiding their village, even though the settlers themselves drove the orc from their ancestral homeland to make their village?"

None of the questions that you pose are in any way hampered by the alignment system or get less tricky if you have an alignment system. What I'm interested in is precisely the selective bias you state in what you are interested in. To be frank, you repeatedly have staked out a position at every turn which is relatively easy to describe in D&D alignment terms. Whatever else may be said of your beliefs about how RPG's ought to be played, they aren't 'lawful'. You repeatedly describe 'truth' in terms of ambiguity and disorder:

Objective notions of good and evil stike me as being inherantly and by definition melodramatic.

True drama, as opposed to melodrama, is to be found in shades of gray

in ambiguous conflict without a clear resolution.

I love using D&D, and other roleplaying games, to ask and explore moral questions. But those moral debates are only meaningful if they take place on the same terms as it takes place in life--i.e. without objective answers.

Is that an objective truth?

That is, in life we don't have any access to objective answers. None of us do.

Which is an ethical conviction that says more about how you approach life than it does state anything certain about the world we find ourselves in.

Using D&D to explore moral questions is awesome. But they have to be genuine questions. If the answers are right there, bound up in some god's degree, the planar structure of the universe, or an overbearing mechanic, then there are no questions.

Are you sure? Because I'm not at all sure of that, nor am I sure how it follows in your logic. I for my part feel sure that it would perhaps be a different set of questions than the one set that you seem interested in, and I'm not at all sure that the universe is made more complex and interesting when the set of questions brought up by having at least the possibility of objective answers out there bound up in 'some god's decree' or the 'planar structure of the universe' is banished from the universe. In fact, I find it something like two color universe (say sepia and green) where sepia is banned from the universe and all you have to pick from is shades of green. (I'd use black and white, but I don't want to appear to be passing judgment.)
 
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Alignment was a clunky and often nonsensical behavioral straightjacket for players, and has therefore essentially been removed from the game in any mechanically meaningful sense.
Personally, I believe that "clunky and often misunderstood by players," is far more accurate.

Take a look at artifacts for instance. In previous editions, they were explicitly linked to a certain alignment.
SOME artifacts in a given edition were linked to a certain alignment. You're painting with a hopelessly broad brush here.

A classic example of the murkiness/overall uselessness of alignment is to try to place most American presidents on an alignment scale.
And precisely the wrong way to actually use it. Once again, alignment is not a straightjacket. You can't take an individual, say he's XY alignment, and suggest that's ALL that he is. Alignment does not encompass ALL his philosophy, religion, morals and ethics. They are not succinctly summed up in that alignment dictating that he cannot, MUST not evidence behaviors which might suggest any other alignment at any time.

Oh it's great fun to argue about what alignment JFK or Gandalf was but it misses the point about how alignment would have been used by the PLAYER of the PC's of JFK or Gandalf. Did the alignment that JFK's player had written on his character sheet ever provide guidance for choosing his characters actions? Was JFK's player CONSTRAINED by that alignment in deciding what his character would do and why? Was he able to shift alignments? Were his actions appropriate reactions to in-game events with alignment still providing the PLAYER a general point of view even if his immediate actions might better suggest a different alignment? Was his alignment still a useful general reflection of his characters morals and ethics?

Being LG doesn't mean you CANNOT do something pointlessly loathesome. It just means you aren't SUPPOSED to; aren't EXPECTED to; and preferrably thus have strong motivations dictated by in-game events for acting CONTRARY to what your alignment suggests.

Life is not a morality play. Unless your D&D campaign is purely about Disneyesque moral paragons running around killing Nazi Demon serial killers, its probably not going to be a straightforward morality play either, and mechanics that try to pretend otherwise are just going to result in lots of stupid and nonresolvable arguments.
And once again, simple anecdotal evidence invalidates that. Just because you saw it that way and handled it that way doesn't mean that everyone else did or should. Two of the most general observations I have made about alignment are that: 1) it's a huge recurring topic online but my personal experience is that it's been a VASTLY smaller issue and arguments over it are uncommon at best, and 2) any game of D&D I played WITHOUT alignment became shockingly likely to feature base and degenerate characters, and spiraled out of control quickly and fell apart when characters found they could sink no lower without the DM ending it instantly. That is to say, as a ROLEPLAYING GUIDELINE, it WORKED.

In my campaigns, nearly every being with more than a basic level of intelligence has a motivation--and that motivation is hardly ever that they want to be "good" or "evil".
Alignment doesn't define all motivations - it describes a characters actions.

Rigid adherance to an aligment just makes me feel like some ridiculous pseudo-character in an Ayn Rand book, an abstraction rather than a fully fleshed out person who i could actually imagine in the real world.
I hate to say this, but you're just doing it wrong.

True drama, as opposed to melodrama, is to be found in shades of gray; in human beings acting not like embodiments of good or evil but like human beings, in partial victories and losses, in ambiguous conflict without a clear resolution.
I believe the accepted notion is that drama is found simply in conflict. That conflict could be found just as easily in black/white as in shades of gray.

I love using D&D, and other roleplaying games, to ask and explore moral questions. But those moral debates are only meaningful if they take place on the same terms as it takes place in life--i.e. without objective answers.
See, I have no particular use for using D&D to explore moral questions. EVERY moral quandry presented to me in D&D by a DM for the purpose of presenting a moral quandry has been of the nature of, "Guess what _I_ want you to do and watch your character get THWAPPED when you guess incorrectly." EVERY one. That is not an exploration of morality.

On the other hand I REVEL in the ability of the CLASSIC paladin to slay evil things, morally secure in the knowledge that to do so is right for no other reason than that they are evil.
 

The Man in the Funny Hat said:
On the other hand I REVEL in the ability of the CLASSIC paladin to slay evil things, morally secure in the knowledge that to do so is right for no other reason than that they are evil.

And, here we have exactly what I said earlier, which Prof C claimed didn't exist - Team Good kills Team Evil for no other reason than they are Team Evil and we are Team Good.
 

And, here we have exactly what I said earlier, which Prof C claimed didn't exist - Team Good kills Team Evil for no other reason than they are Team Evil and we are Team Good.

It does exist because thats how it works. Look at the history of mankind. It is full of such things. The only difference is that in D&D the cosmos itself is the one who assigns you to a team.
 

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