Underwater Flying [2006 Thread]

[mvincent]

Be careful with this one it will lead to the following non-magical means of movement application:

Burrowing underwater.

Burrowing through air.

Climbing underwater (not on a ladder).

Climbing through air.

Walking in air.

The logic is exactly the same - applying movement in other mediums.

If there was a justifiable reason that a given medium supported a given movement, I don't see why not.

Example: you could burrow through water filled tunnels (or ice, snow, jello, etc.) rather than just dirt. We've already established you can walk through (or on) air or water if supported somehow. Climbing is for walls or slopes, but it could still be used on say, a ceiling or floor in the right circumstances. A swimmer could move through things other than water (ale?), and I'd even allow it (assuming they were bouyant) in suitably thick air. A ghost's flying speed is evidently suitable for ground movement or moving through earth, etc.

 

[Dracorat]

Your burrowing example still requires dirt. Unless you are saying that something could burrow through a hole in Jello that was filled with water (in which case I'd say it was swimming, not burrowing since a majority of that locomotion would come from swimming).

 

[Artoomis]

Your burrowing example still requires dirt. Unless you are saying that something could burrow through a hold in Jello that was filled with water (in which case I'd say it was swimming, not burrowing since a majority of that locomotion would come from swimming).

I'd agree that the line between burrowing and swimming is a little muddy.

 

[Musrum]

Be careful with this one it will lead to the following non-magical means of movement application:

Burrowing underwater.

Burrowing through air.

Climbing underwater (not on a ladder).

Climbing through air.

Walking in air.

The logic is exactly the same - applying movement in other mediums.

Right. And if you have a specific question about these sorts of cross-medium movements you should ask WotC. They introduced the rule for walking underwater, and thus opened up your "can of worms".

As far as the specific case of flying underwater, there are specific rules for that too. mvincent found then in MotP.

 

[mvincent]

Your burrowing example still requires dirt.

You should be able to burrow through various semi-solid media other than dirt.

Unless you are saying that something could burrow through a hold in Jello that was filled with water (in which case I'd say it was swimming, not burrowing since a majority of that locomotion would come from swimming).

Gophers have a burrowing speed*. I know that if you fill a gopher hole with water he will come out of it in a hurry without actually swimming.

* they predominately travel via already dug dirt holes, but I believe D&D still calls that burrowing instead of using the squeezing rules, but either way my example should 'hold water'.

 

[Dracorat]

Yes but it's burrowing because the action is the pushing off of the walls of those holes. However, in D&D burrowing means it is capable of digging its own holes.

 

[Musrum]

I fully support your right to rule however you please. This discussion is not intended to tell you are playing 'wrong' or anything. But, the debate is made moot when you respond like this. You're making an arbitrary, completely unfounded dismissal. Along the same lines, I could just dismiss your whole perspective because 'I can'. That's not conducive to meaningful debate.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear with my "This is not a Vote" quote. I believed that if I could show you one real world example of a bird flying underwater this would be sufficient to prove you wrong. So it would not matter if 99.9999% of the avian bio-mass could not fly underwater, one example would be sufficient (Hence - no vote).

However, I was mistaken in my belief that this could be done. Because any real-world example of an avian using the same bio-mechanics as flying, to motivate themselves through a dense fluid will simply be given a (DnD) Swim speed by yourself.

So the assertion that 'you can't fly underwater in the real word' is not falsifiable. And so we can dismiss it.

It also improves the maneuverability of every creature with a Fly speed by one category. Good luck with that.

I have no problem with a Flying (in Air) creature improving their maneuverability by one step when they have a spell or effect that allows them to change their subject gravity however they like. Do you?

As I stated previously: if you remove the special planar traits (Subjective Gravity) and just keep the remaining rules, you can consistently use these expanded movement rules in the general case.

 

[Musrum]

This is a comparison sentence. Swimming with perfect maneuverability as if flying.

It is discussing maneuverability of swimming. It does not indicate that someone can fly underwater. Musrum was invalidly claiming that it does indicate this.

I retract! This requires a leap of imagination that is not necessary now we have the MotP rules.

 

[Musrum]

Every once in a while a weird rule gets added for some out in left field area of interest in some out in left field book which basically ignores how the core rules are written. When it comes to the rules, a good rule of thumb is to use the primary source rule. The source rules already have rules for this: flying is in the air, swimming is underwater.


MotP's an old 3E book which discusses the other planes, not the material plane. The rules are for those other planes. This illustrates absolutely zip.

In fact, if you check the SRD on the D20 site, the section on the Planes does not have this rule at all.

WotC has said that 3.0 is official unless it is superceeded by new 3.5 material. The introduction to the planes section in the DMG 3.5 does not constitute new material.

The MotP does discuss the material plane (briefly) and also alternate material planes.

"The rules are for those other planes." Why is this? Assuming there are rules for frostbite in Frostburn, is it not reasonable to apply them as an environmental effect inside the lair of "Frosto the Frozen One" in the City of Brass? It is simply applying a specific rule to the general case.

As I stated previously, you can deconstruct the Planar movement rules to remove the subjective gravity and still have a perfectly functional rule for flying underwater.

You can chose to not play with this rule (MotP is optional), but you are not playing with RAW(ALL).

 

[Musrum]

I disagree that precedent has been set,

DMG rules for walking underwater is what then?

but let's assume that's true. Now, what makes you think that water is an environment that supports flight?

Water is a fluid. The same bio-mechanical action as flying in air can propel a bird through water.
ANother example: The same priciples allow us to fly a submarine and a zeppelin.

I know, I know, Superman. I guess Smallville got that part wrong then, right? 'Cause he can't fly yet and he moved awfully fast underwater.

I don't watch the show. I assume eventualy Superman uses his Swim speed to move in air...