D&D 5E Unearthed Arcana: Gothic Lineages & New Race/Culture Distinction

The latest Unearthed Arcana contains the Dhampir, Reborn, and Hexblood races. The Dhampir is a half-vampire; the Hexblood is a character which has made a pact with a hag; and the Reborn is somebody brought back to life.

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Perhaps the bigger news is this declaration on how race is to be handled in future D&D books as it joins other games by stating that:

"...the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural. Racial traits henceforth reflect only the physical or magical realities of being a player character who’s a member of a particular lineage. Such traits include things like darkvision, a breath weapon (as in the dragonborn), or innate magical ability (as in the forest gnome). Such traits don’t include cultural characteristics, like language or training with a weapon or a tool, and the traits also don’t include an alignment suggestion, since alignment is a choice for each individual, not a characteristic shared by a lineage."
 
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Magister Ludorum

Adventurer
I prefer no ASI at character creation. If we have to have it, I would prefer it be based on player's choice not on the character's race.

A +2 bonus isn't really much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

I play a lot of BRP games and the difference between a dwarf (4d6 STR) and a halfling (2d6 STR) is significant to be a defining characteristic of the races. If the ASI were larger, it would be more significant, but that doesn't work with bounded accuracy.

In case I sound like I'm arguing both sides of the issue, I would point out that ability scores are much less important in BRP than in D&D. I don't want to get into arguing the merits of the two systems. This is a D&D forum. I just wanted to explain the reason why I dislike racial ASI in D&D.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
None of them have skill, weapon, armor, or tool proficiencies either.
True.

Although, I could see those adding flavor, in appropriate cases.

For example, over in the Witch thread there has been a suggestion that maybe Witch should be one of these lineages. Not sure I agree, but let's say WotC does that. Herbalism would be a perfectly appropriate skill.
 



Hurin70

Adventurer
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that your paradox is somehow clever or insightful.
That's a great way to begin a post if you want to promote respectful dialogue.

As somebody upthread posted, what if two players both said, "I want to play the shortest halfing in the world!" That desire is perfectly in line with traditional halfling stereotypes, and yet it results in the exactly the same problem: two players have character concepts* that can't both exist.
If that's what you conclude from my comments, then you've misunderstood the problem, as well as the logic behind my example.

D&D measures strength primarily by the stat, and the racial bonus to strength primarily by the stat bonus. This is why we can say that an Elf with 19 strength is probably not the 'strongest Elf in the world' -- because a high level Elf fighter can easily get a 20. There is a clear starting value and math that all characters adhere to, as well as a clear cap (20).

There's no clear starting value or clear cap to how small a Halfling can be. There's no 'point buy' for height. So the situations are not analogous. This is not the central reason behind the 'strongest Halfling' example, but it is significant to note if you are trying to make an argument by analogy. The smallest Halfling might be 2'6", or 2'3", or 1 nanometer. But unless you are tying height to some game mechanics, it won't make any difference, mechanically.. This doesn't have anything to do with racial bonuses. It has no mechanical effect. There are no rules for it. And it makes no difference to gameplay. And thus that isn't really a rules question; it's a fluff question. And finally, if you get right down to it, you would I assume want to treat all players the same, and give both equal opportunity to set their Halfling's height at whatever low point they want. So let them say their Halfling's height is whatever they want. It makes no difference to me, or to the rules.

Stats work differently than height though. They have a mechanical effect. They do involve a rule question. The question behind the example about 'an Elf stronger than any Minotaur' vs. 'a Minotaur stronger than any Elf' is that in a point-buy and stat-bonus system, you have to answer which if any races get the stat bonus, and specifically how much of a + they get. Because if every race gets the same bonus, then no race is different than any other, and you've just eliminated the racial bonus from the game. So, exactly how strong is your Elf? What is his 'racial' strength bonus? Note Morrus didn't want to answer that question, and nobody else arguing his position has either. Is his racial bonus +2 or less? Then he's not stronger than any Minotaur. Is it +3 or more? Then he is stronger than any (starting) Minotaur, but how can you justify giving an Elf a greater 'racial' strength bonus than a Minotaur?

You have to answer that question if you want to answer this objection, because you have to assign a number.

So I'll ask that again: What specific numerical value should the 'Elf stronger than any Minotaur' have as his racial strength bonus?

I can actually give a clear answer: Players who want to play the strongest starting character possible should choose Minotaur as their race, since Minotaurs get a +2 Strength bonus, while Elves do not. Please note this also eliminates for me the 'problem' of the question of what to do when one player wants to play an 'Elf stronger than any Minotaur' and another player wants to play a 'Minotaur stronger than any Elf'. This question is not a problem for me because the answer is clear: Players who want to play the strongest starting character should choose a race that gets a strength bonus.

But the question remains a problem for those who would allow an Elf to be stronger than any Minotaur. What would you have as this Elf's racial stat bonus? Why should a player who chooses a race not known for its strength enjoy a starting strength stat higher than a player who chooses a race that is known for its unusual strength?
 
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mockman1890

Explorer
The key is to separate the culture from the species. “Dwarves are like this” gets stereotypey and weird. “The people of Gauntlgrym are like this,” or better yet, “These factors affect the predominant culture of Gauntlgrym in these ways” isn’t uncomfortable in the same way.
I am not trying to be obnoxious but genuinely want to ask: in what way can one have made-up 'races' at all in fantasy (or science fiction) without cultural stereotypes that would be unacceptable when talking about real races?

Sure, you may want to leave open the option that all dwarves are not like X. But your setting might be real small, and all the dwarves really are from Gauntlgrym, where (most) dwarves are like X.

Most players are attracted to races because of the cultural stereotypes/traits and not just the appearance. Like, in a Star Trek RPG (and Star Trek does try to consider these issues), how would you even describe "Vulcans" if you didn't use any cultural signifiers? "They're humanoids with long ears"? Not very exciting roleplaying material. You at least have to get into "Most Vulcans are culturally like X..." territory.

Now, if you were saying "RPG races shouldn't have echoes of real-world negative racial stereotypes", that makes more sense, but I'm hearing something that's considerably broader, to the point that I can't even imagine how RPG races would work in this context.

I mean, if we were to really apply the same standards of sensitivity to describing RPG 'races' that we did to describing real races... not only would no cultural generalizations be acceptable, but even generalizations about physical appearance would be REALLY problematic.

So given this, how can fantasy or sci-fi races work at all? Isn't it futile beyond a point to apply 'real' standards of sensitivity?
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
That's a great way to begin a post if you want to promote respectful dialogue.
True. I reacted poorly to the disrespectful way you were pestering Morrus with a trap question. (Reminds me of the old Bloom County question posed by Milo the intrepid reporter, "Yes or no, Senator: have you stopped snorting cocaine?")


If that's what you conclude from my comments, then you've misunderstood the problem, as well as the logic behind my example.

D&D measures strength primarily by the stat, and the racial bonus to strength primarily by the stat bonus. This is why we can say that an Elf with 19 strength is probably not the 'strongest Elf in the world' -- because a high level Elf fighter can easily get a 20. There is a clear starting value and math that all characters adhere to, as well as a clear cap (20).

There's no clear starting value or clear cap to how small a Halfling can be. There's no 'point buy' for height. So the situations are not analogous. This is not the central reason behind the 'strongest Halfling' example, but it is significant to note if you are trying to make an argument by analogy. The smallest Halfling might be 2'6", or 2'3", or 1 nanometer. But unless you are tying height to some game mechanics, it won't make any difference, mechanically.. This doesn't have anything to do with racial bonuses. It has no mechanical effect. There are no rules for it. And it makes no difference to gameplay. And thus that isn't really a rules question; it's a fluff question. And finally, if you get right down to it, you would I assume want to treat all players the same, and give both equal opportunity to set their Halfling's height at whatever low point they want. So let them say their Halfling's height is whatever they want. It makes no difference to me, or to the rules.

Stats work differently than height though. They have a mechanical effect. They do involve a rule question. The question behind the example about 'an Elf stronger than any Minotaur' vs. 'a Minotaur stronger than any Elf' is that in a point-buy and stat-bonus system, you have to answer which if any races get the stat bonus. Because if every race gets the same bonus, then no race is different than any other, and you've just eliminated the racial bonus from the game. So, exactly how strong is your Elf? Is his strength 18? 20? 22? Note Morrus didn't want to answer that question, and nobody else arguing his position has either. But you have to if you want to answer this objection, because you have to assign a number. You have to give an answer.

So I'll ask that again: What specific numerical value should the 'Elf stronger than any Minotaur' have as his strength stat?

I can actually give a clear answer: Players who want to play the strongest starting character possible should choose Minotaur as their race, since Minotaurs get a Strength bonus, while Elves do not. Please note this also eliminates for me the 'problem' of the question of what to do when one player wants to play an 'Elf stronger than any Minotaur' and another player wants to play a 'Minotaur stronger than any Elf'. This question is not a problem for me because the answer is clear: Players who want to play the strongest starting character should choose a race that gets a strength bonus.

But the question remains a problem for those who would allow an Elf to be stronger than any Minotaur. What would you have as this Elf's starting strength stat? Why should a player who chooses a race not known for its strength enjoy a starting strength stat higher than a player who chooses a race that is known for its unusual strength?

Fine, then both of them want to be "the most dextrous halfling in the world."

Basically, "I want to be more of X than any other player" is not a valid character concept. If the other players all agree to it, then fine. I expect you wouldn't accede to a character concept of "I want to be the only starting character with a magic weapon" so why "I want to be stronger than any other starting character"?
 

Remathilis

Legend
One thing I take away from this UA is that each of the three options have very distinctive flavor. We can quibble about the mechanical details, but in play these lineages give the player a great toolkit for representing these archetypes. The abilities, combined with some of the fluff, do a great job at evoking an appropriate image.

And yet...none of them have fixed ability score increases.
Without that sidebar, I'd have assumed there were two sets of rules: races and lineages.

A race is a normal, true-breeding* species that has a distinct culture, society, language, biology, and appearance. Examples of them are basically every race in the PHB. These races have set ability scores, languages, and proficiencies, but those can be modified per Tasha.

A lineage is a species that is descended from another species, but biologically unique. They may share looks or culture from another group, but they are something different and have unique racial traits. They lack certain fixed traits (ASI, languages, size) because they are not true-breeding but basically mutants of their parent race. The custom lineage, dhampirs, hexblood, and reborn are lineages, and you could probably retrofit things like aasimar, hollowed ones, or simic-hybrids as lineages.

It would open two different areas of design; classic fantasy races and unique lineages. However, they are going to go forward with one set of rules for both, rather than support both.
 

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