Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana October 2017: Fiendish Options

So a bunch of fiendish subraces but only a point of ABS besides Charisma moved to other skills and some Legacy spells swaps, plus some cult spells and features.

It doesn't do much for my game.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm iffy on the tiefling options, they don't do a lot for me. It's nice to have in back pocket though if someone wants to switch some spells around.


The gold here for me are the new traits and boons for the various cults, as well as some hinted at lore for the various Archdevils. We haven't seen much of them in 5e, so it is nice to have some additional talk about what they want and how they operate for those of us who don't have a massive 2e and 3.X library to draw from.

And some of these are nasty. Spell Leech is just mean, Path of Levistus is aggravation incarnate, Baphomet's unnerring tracker is sooo potentially useful, the MArilith Serpentine Reaction is very fun.

Plus, this gives me something for those times when my players invariably want to make a deal with a devil or demon for more power, I can just slap some of these on there as a reward, or at least use them as a base.

How much more tempted to make a deal would people be if I offer the ability to psychically track their foes or to turn a normal strike into a critical once per battle instead of the generic "power" and then have to scramble when I forget that yes, my players will totally start asking "how much power and what is the starting price"

Very cool and very useful

 

[Dualazi]

The Tiefling options are kind of hit an miss, with an annoying amount of overlap on some options and some serious power creep on others.

The DM-centric options are where it shines though, pretty much all of that content is really good and I will probably use several of them the next time I need to run demon-themed organizations.

 

[Chaosmancer]

oops, posted Xanathar discussion here by accident.

moved it to proper place

 

[dave2008]

Demonic boons? Mostly benefits with no downside (Zuggtmoy and Jubilex aside)? Well, that is interesting. I think they need to have a downside that comes into play when the boon is taken away, and perhaps an 'upkeep' requirement (sacrifices, etc...) to keep the booned entity loyal to their master.

Isn't the cult and boon information for DMs to apply to NPCs and monsters? I agree downside might be interesting for flavor, but I don't think you need them to use these effectively. They are just something to add to some monsters/NPCs to give them a unifying theme.

 

[dave2008]

Yet another bunch of boring, lazy options. More races with spells instead of imaginative, creative or interesting differences. And yet more power creep. Dex + Cha + minor illusion/disguise self and invisibility, really? That's 10x better than just about any other option aside from winged.

Be sure to give them the appropriate feedback then. From what we have seen/heard about XGtE to looks like they are listening.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Isn't the cult and boon information for DMs to apply to NPCs and monsters? I agree downside might be interesting for flavor, but I don't think you need them to use these effectively. They are just something to add to some monsters/NPCs to give them a unifying theme.

They are 99% meant for NPCs and monsters, but I think they make a great fall back to give to players when they make deals with dark forces.

In which case it is important to consider and write up some appropriate consequences.

 

[Sadras]

From a DM's perspective this is great stuff. Good job WotC.

 

[Charles Rampant]

Yeah, I agree that the cult stuff is by far the more interesting of the content here. It's easy to slap a combat together by saying, "8 cultists and 1 bearded devil"; it's harder to make that combat feel distinct from any other cultist combat, and having this kind of small but potent ability should help.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I seem to recall MM saying something about needing to stat up an archdevil on twitter a while ago. Now this article.....

If it was just devil-related options, I would say it might lead into next fall's AP (we are about due for a devil-themed one I think), but with the demon stuff too, it makes me think it is for the next winter book o' content.

As for the tieflings/cults, I guess I think of Asmodeus as more fear/control, with fire as secondary, whereas Mephisto (oops, wrong devil) and Fierna are more fire with other stuff secondary, so I probably would have made the PHB tiefling the default one for Mephy, and a more tyrannical one for Assy.

 

[Dausuul]

The tiefling part is really phoning it in. I mean, we've got a slew of tiefling subraces that... change the secondary stat bonus and swap out the spells granted by Infernal Legacy. That's it? Come on.

The NPC stuff is much better. I can definitely see using these abilities to grant a distinctive flavor to a cult or an evil minion.

This article reads like they had all the cultist stuff carefully thought out and written up, and about an hour and a half before deadline, someone said "But what about player options?"

 

[DEFCON 1]

And yet, were they to release new Tiefling options next year without anyone getting a chance to see/playtest them first, there'd be a heap of complaints about it.

I mean, we STILL get people complaining that they never got to playtest or check out the newer versions of the Warlock or Sorcerer after the first versions they threw to us and it's been three fricking years since they've been released. So now they give us things they're looking at adding so we have a chance to comment and people are complaining about that too because they aren't "important enough" to be these mythical UAs.

It's almost as though people need or expect these UAs to just be the Ranger, Artificer, and Mystic on a tri-monthly loop of updates... because if a UA isn't the size of a full 20-level class then obviously it's a complete waste of everyone's time.

 

[Eltab]

Since I'm writing a "Fight the Demons" campaign travelling along FR's Great Dale (ending in Impiltur), the cultists' powers will be interesting to me.

 

[dave2008]

They are 99% meant for NPCs and monsters, but I think they make a great fall back to give to players when they make deals with dark forces.

In which case it is important to consider and write up some appropriate consequences.

I guess, buy I'm fine if the 1% who want to use it that way have to create their own consequences. I guess you know what to comment in your feedvack

Now, I wouldn't mind if they do add consequences, depending on what else would have to be cut to include them.

 

[dave2008]

As for the tieflings/cults, I guess I think of Asmodeus as more fear/control, with fire as secondary, whereas Mephisto (oops, wrong devil) and Fierna are more fire with other stuff secondary, so I probably would have made the PHB tiefling the default one for Mephy, and a more tyrannical one for Assy.

I think that makes sense. That stood out to me too (Asmodeus as the default).

 

[Arilyn]

And yet, were they to release new Tiefling options next year without anyone getting a chance to see/playtest them first, there'd be a heap of complaints about it.

I mean, we STILL get people complaining that they never got to playtest or check out the newer versions of the Warlock or Sorcerer after the first versions they threw to us and it's been three fricking years since they've been released. So now they give us things they're looking at adding so we have a chance to comment and people are complaining about that too because they aren't "important enough" to be these mythical UAs.

It's almost as though people need or expect these UAs to just be the Ranger, Artificer, and Mystic on a tri-monthly loop of updates... because if a UA isn't the size of a full 20-level class then obviously it's a complete waste of everyone's time.

I am not seeing this at all. I'm seeing players commenting on what they like and dislike about the options, which is the point. It seems like a pretty even mix of positive and negative. Game designers actively seek constructive criticism, as "cheerleading" alone does wonders for the ego, but doesn't help their game. Confused about your comment that people are wanting full blown classes exclusively. Is this in another thread?
An informal discussion, on a site like this, is going to have its share of less than helpful comments,(it's a conversation, after all, not formal playtest feedback), but this particular thread seems to be going along pretty well so far.

 

[Dausuul]

And yet, were they to release new Tiefling options next year without anyone getting a chance to see/playtest them first, there'd be a heap of complaints about it.

If WotC does anything at all--or doesn't do it--there will be a heap of complaints about it. That is the nature of a large and passionate fanbase. Ain't no pleasing everybody.

For my part, I don't see any need for large-scale playtesting of "swap out the tiefling's spells and secondary stat bonuses." All of the spells in question have already been playtested, and none of them is being given any unusual mechanics (warlock-style recovery on a short rest, casting earlier than a spellcaster would have access to them, etc.) that would warrant review. WotC's internal playtest process is more than sufficient for something like that.

I expect this UA is more about judging the fan reaction, and this fan's reaction is "That's all you got?"

(This is speaking only about the tiefling subrace section. The cultist section is seriously awesome stuff.)

 

[DEFCON 1]

I expect this UA is more about judging the fan reaction, and this fan's reaction is "That's all you got?"

Okay then answer me this: What other parts of the Tiefling race needed to be changed for this sub-race to be substantial to you?

Age
Alignment
Size
Speed
Languages
Darkvision
Hellish Resistance

Besides the ability score increases and the three spells of Infernal Legacy... that's all you've got to change. What do you feel was missing that would have made the UA worthwhile? Was it Hellish Resistance? Had they given a resistance to a different energy type for each archduke then the UA would have gone from eye-rolling to good? Or if not that then, what else? How many parts of the base tiefling would they have had to make variants on for you to have been okay with it?

 

[Elon Tusk]

Okay then answer me this: What other parts of the Tiefling race needed to be changed for this sub-race to be substantial to you?

Swapping out abilities and spells is simple; any DM I have ever seen could do the re-skins with little effort.
I look for something more substantially unique in these articles.
For this one, I would have settled for some differences in appearance among the sub-races (horn, tail, skin-color, etc.) but would really have liked a new feature for most.

 

[Parmandur]

Swapping out abilities and spells is simple; any DM I have ever seen could do the re-skins with little effort.
I look for something more substantially unique in these articles.
For this one, I would have settled for some differences in appearance among the sub-races (horn, tail, skin-color, etc.) but would really have liked a new feature for most.

The differences in appearance don't really need playtesting, and are more or less set by the established aesthetic of the given Devil types, I would think.

 

[Elon Tusk]

The differences in appearance don't really need playtesting, and are more or less set by the established aesthetic of the given Devil types, I would think.

Yes, that was why I said a minimum of that but really wanted something unique.